WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.030 --> 00:00:00.450 Nicki: Hello. 00:00:00.900 --> 00:00:01.470 Welcome. 00:00:01.500 --> 00:00:04.410 It's great to have you all here with us today for an event. 00:00:05.010 --> 00:00:06.450 So I'm going to introduce myself. 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:07.530 I'm Nicki sprints. 00:00:07.560 --> 00:00:10.750 I'm the managing director of the UsTwo European Studios. 00:00:10.770 --> 00:00:13.530 And I'm joined here today by Colin and Nikki. 00:00:14.570 --> 00:00:16.100 Colin: Hi, I am Colin Lyons. 00:00:16.100 --> 00:00:19.850 I am the delivery director for our European Studios in UsTwo and I've 00:00:19.850 --> 00:00:21.320 been with us two for seven years 00:00:22.190 --> 00:00:23.660 Nikki Wicks: and I'm Nikki Wix. 00:00:23.690 --> 00:00:27.140 I am the COO and creative director of the body coach. 00:00:27.200 --> 00:00:31.270 So two Nikki's I'm also Joe's brother, as you guys know, but I 00:00:31.350 --> 00:00:34.520 cleared it up for anyone watching who just for our names were similar 00:00:34.580 --> 00:00:35.900 and we apparently we sound alike. 00:00:35.900 --> 00:00:42.200 So just to get rid of any confusion and the I've also, I guess, inadvertently 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:45.380 been the product lead on this, on this project, which I never planned 00:00:45.380 --> 00:00:46.730 on being when we started, but. 00:00:47.760 --> 00:00:48.570 Nice to be here. 00:00:48.720 --> 00:00:49.050 Thanks, 00:00:49.050 --> 00:00:49.497 Nicki: Nikki. 00:00:50.176 --> 00:00:53.309 So Nikki, you and Jay were running a really successful business. 00:00:53.309 --> 00:00:54.599 You've built an incredible brand. 00:00:54.629 --> 00:00:56.160 You had really engaged customers. 00:00:56.430 --> 00:01:00.500 What prompted you to decide to build an app? 00:01:00.620 --> 00:01:01.190 Yeah, so it 00:01:01.190 --> 00:01:03.530 Nikki Wicks: was it was quite a long journey, really. 00:01:05.070 --> 00:01:10.650 We had a business that was a PDF fitness plans, training meal plans. 00:01:10.650 --> 00:01:14.220 We, we very much saw ourselves as, as a digital business, but it 00:01:14.220 --> 00:01:15.660 was very analog at the same time. 00:01:15.660 --> 00:01:17.280 So the product was very static. 00:01:17.610 --> 00:01:19.420 We couldn't improve it very quickly. 00:01:20.610 --> 00:01:24.060 And we always knew in the back of our minds that, you know, technology was 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:28.140 going to allow us to make a better product first and foremost, and also, you 00:01:28.140 --> 00:01:30.390 know, a scalable, more scalable product. 00:01:30.570 --> 00:01:32.040 But yeah, we had some false starts. 00:01:32.625 --> 00:01:37.140 We kind of dipped in and out of the idea and we there few times where 00:01:37.410 --> 00:01:40.050 we had some really interesting means we have some, you know, people 00:01:40.050 --> 00:01:41.220 would come across in the industry. 00:01:41.220 --> 00:01:45.570 Some, you know, some, some, some kind of people in the tech space that 00:01:46.140 --> 00:01:48.330 just through events and stuff would sort of say, oh, you know, you should 00:01:48.330 --> 00:01:49.740 really think about building an outlet. 00:01:49.740 --> 00:01:52.620 So an opportunity for the brand in the, in the app space. 00:01:52.950 --> 00:01:55.860 And yeah, we initially started conversations really start to think about 00:01:55.860 --> 00:01:58.380 it a few years ago and explored the idea. 00:01:59.205 --> 00:02:00.855 What does it even mean to build an app? 00:02:00.855 --> 00:02:01.785 Like what you have to do? 00:02:01.785 --> 00:02:02.774 Like how much does it cost? 00:02:02.804 --> 00:02:03.495 How do you build it? 00:02:03.495 --> 00:02:06.495 Because Joe and I, you know, we, it's a pretty small business and we 00:02:06.495 --> 00:02:08.445 don't have any technical expertise. 00:02:08.745 --> 00:02:09.734 And I found a funny story. 00:02:09.734 --> 00:02:14.204 We actually after sort of in that period of investigating it, we went 00:02:14.204 --> 00:02:18.105 and had a meeting at Headspace in Santa Monica and just met the team there. 00:02:18.105 --> 00:02:21.465 And one of the things we were both just completely overwhelmed. 00:02:21.465 --> 00:02:23.865 It was the amount of people that were in the office. 00:02:23.865 --> 00:02:25.275 It was like 300 people. 00:02:25.275 --> 00:02:29.235 And we left thinking, like, if that's what it looks like to have a business 00:02:29.355 --> 00:02:31.245 and that business, it put us off. 00:02:31.545 --> 00:02:35.295 And actually we kind of left going, actually, maybe we shouldn't build an app. 00:02:36.201 --> 00:02:38.085 And then two years later we sort of started thinking about it. 00:02:38.085 --> 00:02:38.144 Yeah. 00:02:39.420 --> 00:02:40.710 Which sort of started this journey. 00:02:40.710 --> 00:02:41.070 Really. 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:41.580 Yeah. 00:02:41.580 --> 00:02:42.090 And so how 00:02:42.090 --> 00:02:43.920 Nicki: did you end up choosing us to as your 00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:44.370 Nikki Wicks: partner? 00:02:45.030 --> 00:02:48.920 Basically, when we started to think about it again, really seriously, 00:02:48.950 --> 00:02:51.980 we just sort of started to ask some people for recommendations. 00:02:51.980 --> 00:02:55.880 We started to, you know, I had a network of people that worked in the 00:02:55.880 --> 00:03:01.010 tech space and a few names came up us to was one of, you know, an agency, a 00:03:01.010 --> 00:03:02.460 name that came up a couple of times. 00:03:03.262 --> 00:03:09.050 I also was introduced by via kind of another friend to, to mills 00:03:09.050 --> 00:03:10.400 your co one of your co-founders. 00:03:10.670 --> 00:03:12.110 So there was a bit of a connection there. 00:03:12.350 --> 00:03:15.920 And in the end we ended up with a kind of four or five agencies that had been 00:03:15.920 --> 00:03:17.180 recommended and they're all different. 00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:19.460 Some of them, some big, some more boutique. 00:03:19.460 --> 00:03:24.620 And yeah, we met, went around London and met sort of four or five agencies. 00:03:26.030 --> 00:03:28.010 Nicki: And the chemistry was there, I guess, from, from. 00:03:29.054 --> 00:03:29.355 Nikki Wicks: Yeah. 00:03:29.355 --> 00:03:35.415 So I had already had a meeting we've we've we've Lexi our client partner and had 00:03:35.415 --> 00:03:37.274 been to the studio and really loved it. 00:03:37.274 --> 00:03:39.674 And I was like, wow, like this is a really cool place. 00:03:40.065 --> 00:03:45.225 And I left fit in, like in the back of my mind, I was like, okay, I 00:03:45.255 --> 00:03:49.454 really like those guys, Joe then came back from America and I had 00:03:49.454 --> 00:03:52.005 lined up the agencies to meet. 00:03:52.364 --> 00:03:55.725 And we basically, we, we, it was a really busy time and I managed to kind of get 00:03:55.725 --> 00:03:59.625 all of the meetings, I guess you call them, pitch it where they were pictures. 00:03:59.625 --> 00:04:01.035 I mean, I've never been in a pitch process. 00:04:01.204 --> 00:04:02.795 Well, but currently it's called a pitch. 00:04:03.065 --> 00:04:07.174 So we had this light how day, and me and Joe just going to 00:04:07.174 --> 00:04:08.285 meet these other agencies. 00:04:08.285 --> 00:04:12.334 And they had all had a brief and came you know, we've, we've some 00:04:12.334 --> 00:04:14.734 kind of ideas about how they would, how they would work with us. 00:04:15.125 --> 00:04:17.524 And us two was the last agency. 00:04:17.555 --> 00:04:19.414 It was like really late in the afternoon. 00:04:19.925 --> 00:04:23.885 And I was, and we're starting to, yeah, we, we enjoy with Tai good. 00:04:23.885 --> 00:04:27.365 And it was like a long day, but I had sort of in the back of my mind all 00:04:27.365 --> 00:04:29.609 day, I know he's going to love us too. 00:04:29.609 --> 00:04:31.830 Cause I had already sort of loved them from the initial meeting. 00:04:32.529 --> 00:04:34.200 But I didn't want to sway him in any way. 00:04:34.200 --> 00:04:37.090 So I was really like playing it, you know, just sort of not saying anything. 00:04:38.167 --> 00:04:41.340 We had the meeting and as, as you know, Colin, you, you were there, 00:04:41.340 --> 00:04:46.020 Joe famously hide, hired you on the spot in, in that meeting. 00:04:46.289 --> 00:04:47.770 And I was sort of kicking him under the table. 00:04:47.789 --> 00:04:52.020 Like let's, you know, I want it to make you sweat a little bit. 00:04:52.409 --> 00:04:54.330 I didn't think we should be like play well, but that's Joe. 00:04:54.330 --> 00:04:58.349 So we basically made the decision that day there and then to, to work with you guys. 00:04:58.349 --> 00:04:59.940 So yeah, here we are. 00:05:00.140 --> 00:05:00.380 Yeah. 00:05:00.380 --> 00:05:00.830 Nicki: Amazing. 00:05:00.830 --> 00:05:04.700 Here we are so many months later and Colin, I wanted to ask you, Hey 00:05:04.719 --> 00:05:07.310 Joe, Nikki is like you said, hadn't, hadn't done this kind of process 00:05:07.310 --> 00:05:08.659 before they hadn't done the pitching. 00:05:08.810 --> 00:05:11.780 We certainly haven't gone through the journey of software development. 00:05:11.780 --> 00:05:14.049 How did you explain the process and start to get them? 00:05:15.409 --> 00:05:19.340 Colin: Yeah, the thing is, you know, having built a lot of digital 00:05:19.340 --> 00:05:22.640 products, I know that everyone starts out very optimistic, right? 00:05:22.640 --> 00:05:23.039 That's how it. 00:05:24.060 --> 00:05:25.680 Created around creating a new product. 00:05:26.175 --> 00:05:31.860 But the journey is inevitably Rocky and I felt you know, there was a real affinity 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:34.080 for Joe Nikki in the, in the studio. 00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:36.930 Generally, there was people just knew about Joe and they really loved him and 00:05:36.930 --> 00:05:37.890 people were already committed to him. 00:05:37.890 --> 00:05:41.290 So I think there was a sense of don't want to steer these people wrong. 00:05:41.290 --> 00:05:43.080 I want to make sure they really understand that the journey that we're 00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:44.280 going to be on if we do this together. 00:05:44.280 --> 00:05:47.550 So we had a kickoff, we have a, our kickoff process is quite elaborate. 00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:50.670 We try to really get a connection between all the parties involved. 00:05:50.670 --> 00:05:53.940 Pictures are real understanding of each other and building that 00:05:53.940 --> 00:05:56.310 collaboration that's gonna be necessary to make this journey work. 00:05:56.310 --> 00:05:59.910 But I just felt like we had to be very explicit with Joe Nikki about, and 00:05:59.910 --> 00:06:02.160 the rest of your Tina had come as well to come to that kickoff just to make 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.270 sure everyone was clear that there, I don't know what the bumps are going to 00:06:06.270 --> 00:06:07.350 be, but there are going to be bumps. 00:06:07.350 --> 00:06:08.820 It's just the nature of doing software. 00:06:08.820 --> 00:06:11.120 So we just ran some exercises to. 00:06:12.225 --> 00:06:14.885 Make transparent, what that experience would be like, the fact 00:06:14.895 --> 00:06:15.975 there's going to be ups and downs. 00:06:16.822 --> 00:06:21.135 And you know, actually I thought it was quite interesting to see cause 00:06:21.135 --> 00:06:23.745 I've run this exercise, you know, dozens and dozens of times before. 00:06:24.135 --> 00:06:29.385 And Joe was the first person I'd ever seen respond to the exercise the way 00:06:29.385 --> 00:06:32.265 he did, which essentially is just saying, what do you think emotional 00:06:32.265 --> 00:06:33.315 journey is going to feel like? 00:06:33.735 --> 00:06:35.865 And each person kind of draws a little graph and it's just 00:06:35.865 --> 00:06:38.935 a way to kind of visualize the experience of what it might be like. 00:06:39.481 --> 00:06:43.005 So we're going around the room, there must be 25 or service 30 of us in that room. 00:06:43.485 --> 00:06:46.365 And everyone's showing their graph of what it's gonna be like. 00:06:46.395 --> 00:06:50.825 And Joe's graph was like positive now, now positive to the end. 00:06:51.125 --> 00:06:51.725 Right? 00:06:51.815 --> 00:06:52.175 Wow. 00:06:52.775 --> 00:06:56.825 Like I think I got some work to do here because it's not going to look like that. 00:06:56.825 --> 00:06:58.672 And you know, we, we debriefed about it as we were. 00:07:00.002 --> 00:07:02.445 Through our different views of what experience has been like. 00:07:02.445 --> 00:07:04.935 And when he said was like I know there's gonna be ups and downs. 00:07:04.935 --> 00:07:08.175 It's a nature of doing the kind of work that we do, but I am sending to him 00:07:08.265 --> 00:07:09.794 personally, I'm going to stay positive. 00:07:09.825 --> 00:07:13.515 I'm going to be the one who keeps us feeling, feeling good about the journey. 00:07:13.515 --> 00:07:16.275 And I think that was actually a really good thing for him to S to say, because 00:07:16.275 --> 00:07:20.805 I think it really crystallized the positivity has to kind of do what he 00:07:20.805 --> 00:07:24.015 does to do the kind of, you know, and, you know, building software is hard. 00:07:24.284 --> 00:07:28.485 There's a lot of known unknowns and that's the thing that really makes it tough. 00:07:29.715 --> 00:07:34.215 So yeah, that was, that was the, that was the way in which I wanted to kind of start 00:07:34.515 --> 00:07:37.275 getting the mindset of we're going to go through some stuff together and we're 00:07:37.275 --> 00:07:39.995 going to, we're going to do it together, but it's not all going to be funny. 00:07:40.235 --> 00:07:40.445 Oh, 00:07:40.505 --> 00:07:42.905 Nikki Wicks: I remember that so well, and I, I feel I've told you this 00:07:42.965 --> 00:07:45.215 since then, but I remember it so well. 00:07:45.215 --> 00:07:49.860 And actually I remember that point In time where things started to get tough. 00:07:49.890 --> 00:07:51.630 And I actually remember that. 00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:53.670 I remember thinking, right, Colin said this was going to happen. 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:58.080 He said, there's no projects where it's all just really smooth and great. 00:07:58.080 --> 00:07:58.950 And technology's tough. 00:07:58.950 --> 00:08:00.659 And it really stuck with me. 00:08:00.659 --> 00:08:05.040 So I'm so glad we did it because I definitely, there was so much naivety 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.070 like for me and Joe, like, you know, we're, we're really small team. 00:08:08.070 --> 00:08:11.159 A lot of people see the body coach business and the brand and think 00:08:11.159 --> 00:08:15.570 there's quite a big machine behind it, but there's really not like, you know, 00:08:15.570 --> 00:08:20.550 that whole process of, of, of hiring an agency and even, you know, the decision 00:08:20.550 --> 00:08:21.930 to build that was just me and Joe. 00:08:22.470 --> 00:08:25.440 And there was no advisors, there was no tech, any, it was, there 00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:26.940 was no one else to sort of support. 00:08:26.940 --> 00:08:29.789 So, you know, I definitely remember that really well. 00:08:29.789 --> 00:08:32.130 And it, it certainly set me up because I was obviously more 00:08:32.130 --> 00:08:34.319 hands-on than Joe was day-to-day. 00:08:34.650 --> 00:08:37.940 But I just remember like really going back to that thing you said and thinking about, 00:08:37.940 --> 00:08:39.450 okay, we knew this was gonna happen. 00:08:40.470 --> 00:08:41.310 We're going to get through it. 00:08:41.370 --> 00:08:41.520 Yeah. 00:08:41.550 --> 00:08:45.750 So it's really that X wherever you keep doing that, basically. 00:08:46.050 --> 00:08:46.470 Yeah. 00:08:47.070 --> 00:08:48.680 Nicki: I guess did stay true to his word. 00:08:48.680 --> 00:08:52.550 He did turn up to those demos with real positivity and inject kind of the energy 00:08:52.550 --> 00:08:54.020 into the room, which was really amazing. 00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.000 I mean, Nikki, you kind of raised it now. 00:08:56.180 --> 00:08:58.550 There were some hairier moments for us on the project. 00:08:58.550 --> 00:08:58.780 Right. 00:08:58.790 --> 00:09:00.950 We, we did have some tough moments. 00:09:00.950 --> 00:09:04.400 How did that feel for you and how to, how do you feel we navigated through it? 00:09:05.390 --> 00:09:05.630 Yeah. 00:09:05.630 --> 00:09:06.320 So, I mean, I've 00:09:06.350 --> 00:09:10.400 Nikki Wicks: I've so what are we now like 18 months since we started building 00:09:10.410 --> 00:09:14.930 out and like, I've learned just so much, like, I mean, it's been an amazing that, 00:09:14.930 --> 00:09:21.290 so that kickoff or the pitch that I say when, when we did that and when Joe hired 00:09:21.290 --> 00:09:23.480 you on the spot, I left that meeting. 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:23.930 I'm right. 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.280 You know, we need to find someone who's gonna basically run this project for us. 00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:33.705 I could, you know, I now know it would be a product lead or someone And we 00:09:33.705 --> 00:09:37.785 did a discovery phase and it was, so it was so much, so much personal 00:09:37.785 --> 00:09:38.895 stuff that this project needed. 00:09:38.895 --> 00:09:42.225 Like, we really wanted it to feel like Joe wanted it to be like, Joe, in, you 00:09:42.235 --> 00:09:46.485 know, we've used Joe in your pocket, this idea of it being personal and emotional 00:09:46.815 --> 00:09:49.635 and basically only me or Joe could arm. 00:09:49.635 --> 00:09:53.625 So a lot of those questions, so bringing someone in to kind of, you know, have, 00:09:53.655 --> 00:09:55.635 have that role didn't really work. 00:09:55.635 --> 00:10:00.645 So I ended up like doing it just because I kind of had to, and then I've ended up 00:10:00.645 --> 00:10:05.115 just kind of continuing on that journey and I've learned so much, but it has 00:10:05.115 --> 00:10:08.115 been, yeah, there been times when it's been really tough, like the toughest 00:10:08.115 --> 00:10:12.045 point was when we realized that, you know, the budget that we had set, wasn't 00:10:12.045 --> 00:10:13.905 going to be enough to get it done. 00:10:14.265 --> 00:10:14.865 And that was before. 00:10:15.824 --> 00:10:19.574 You know, the co it was a lot more complex and it was, you know, but we, you know, 00:10:19.665 --> 00:10:22.995 it was, that was that was when I looked back, that was a horrible week or two 00:10:22.995 --> 00:10:25.635 where we, you know, we had some difficult meetings and difficult conversations, 00:10:25.665 --> 00:10:28.785 but I always felt like we were getting through it together as a kind of right. 00:10:28.785 --> 00:10:29.714 We need to figure this out. 00:10:30.015 --> 00:10:33.015 And I think you guys took responsible, you know, put your hands up as well and 00:10:33.015 --> 00:10:38.295 took responsibility for kind of, you know, scoping, maybe wasn't as, was either 00:10:38.305 --> 00:10:42.525 tricky to scope at the start, but I didn't feel like it was like a loggerheads. 00:10:42.525 --> 00:10:45.975 It was more like, okay, we've hit this speed bump and we need to find 00:10:45.975 --> 00:10:47.355 a way through it, like together. 00:10:47.714 --> 00:10:51.105 And I, I definitely felt like we were in it, you know, it wasn't like our problem. 00:10:51.105 --> 00:10:54.704 It was, it was our collective problem that we needed to fix. 00:10:54.704 --> 00:10:59.204 But aside from that, I mean, learning that, you know, for me personally, 00:10:59.204 --> 00:11:00.645 that technology takes time. 00:11:01.035 --> 00:11:05.985 You know, some things you, you know, even now it's like understanding that the 00:11:05.985 --> 00:11:09.765 smallest changes when you're trying to build something really well and really. 00:11:10.950 --> 00:11:15.360 I know, w I think you may have the analogy of a house, like building a house. 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:17.980 Like if you want to do it properly, like you need to get the foundations, right. 00:11:20.110 --> 00:11:24.060 Yeah, I think now 18 months in, I'm a lot more understanding of the process. 00:11:24.060 --> 00:11:28.710 So the things that felt like we were going too slow, or now I understand them. 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:33.240 So I, I think a lot of the challenges for me were just the naivety of not 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:38.520 really understanding technology, but always felt like we could ask 00:11:39.060 --> 00:11:42.900 questions and, you know, we were very much guided through it by you guys. 00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:43.170 So, 00:11:44.030 --> 00:11:47.720 Colin: you know, I, I find that if I reflect on our, our experience 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:52.190 together on this project, I feel like it was the opinion of two parts. 00:11:52.905 --> 00:11:55.455 And whenever, you know, we're starting off a project with a 00:11:55.455 --> 00:11:56.735 client, that's what I'm aiming for. 00:11:56.805 --> 00:11:59.205 Aiming to try to build a relationship that we can actually feel like 00:11:59.205 --> 00:12:02.235 we have a partnership and some clients give that lip service. 00:12:02.235 --> 00:12:03.405 They say, oh yeah, you're partners. 00:12:03.405 --> 00:12:05.535 But then when things get difficult, they don't want to go through 00:12:05.535 --> 00:12:06.525 that together as partners. 00:12:06.825 --> 00:12:10.125 And I feel like this project really epitomise what that means. 00:12:10.125 --> 00:12:12.735 It means that, like you said, we came to the table, we took 00:12:12.735 --> 00:12:14.745 responsibility for things that we could have done better for sure. 00:12:15.135 --> 00:12:16.755 And we worked on, okay, so what's our solution. 00:12:16.785 --> 00:12:18.285 How do we work that through? 00:12:18.495 --> 00:12:21.675 But I think there's some other things that maybe maybe don't stand out in 00:12:21.675 --> 00:12:24.945 your mind as much as they do to me, because when you have no matter how much 00:12:24.945 --> 00:12:26.265 budget you have, it's limited, right? 00:12:26.265 --> 00:12:27.885 That doesn't matter which client you have. 00:12:27.975 --> 00:12:30.135 And you always want more than your budget can get you in the 00:12:30.135 --> 00:12:31.185 time that you want to get it done. 00:12:32.295 --> 00:12:35.145 And that means constant trade-offs right. 00:12:35.145 --> 00:12:36.885 You're always having to say, what am I not getting? 00:12:36.885 --> 00:12:37.665 What am I not getting? 00:12:38.175 --> 00:12:42.780 And that is obviously a very It's a very important part of the process 00:12:42.780 --> 00:12:46.650 of building software, but the emotion of having to accept that you're not 00:12:46.650 --> 00:12:47.850 going to get what you hoped for. 00:12:47.850 --> 00:12:51.840 What you dreamed of is, is it's something that all projects have to 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:54.090 deal with, but I think some clients deal with it better than others. 00:12:54.090 --> 00:12:55.940 I feel like you guys did it really, really well. 00:12:56.330 --> 00:13:00.550 You know, we were in a lot of cars, conversations, I would say daily, but 00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:03.110 probably it wasn't daily, but it felt like that we were talking all the time about, 00:13:03.140 --> 00:13:04.220 okay, what are we going to trim down? 00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:05.390 What are we going to get it down to? 00:13:05.390 --> 00:13:06.320 So we can fit into the budget. 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:07.670 What's our prioritization going to be. 00:13:08.150 --> 00:13:11.780 And I feel that kind of dialogue done in a form that we did it, it 00:13:11.800 --> 00:13:13.160 really felt like partnership to me. 00:13:14.346 --> 00:13:16.280 And it's, it's not something I can say that we happen to have 00:13:16.280 --> 00:13:17.290 all the time is what I aim for. 00:13:17.310 --> 00:13:20.090 But you know, people, different circumstances, you know, cause 00:13:20.090 --> 00:13:23.360 whether people can really feel, they can get into a relationship with 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:25.130 an agency as a partnership or not. 00:13:26.280 --> 00:13:26.970 Nikki Wicks: Yeah, definitely. 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:28.260 I, I completely agree. 00:13:28.260 --> 00:13:31.320 And it is, it's been a very close working relationship of all of 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:33.180 the team, but it's been emotional. 00:13:33.180 --> 00:13:35.730 Like it's been personal and it's so personal. 00:13:35.730 --> 00:13:38.760 Like we weren't, it wasn't like, we're just building a product, 00:13:38.760 --> 00:13:40.020 we've got this idea for a product. 00:13:40.020 --> 00:13:45.570 So we kind of had a product that we knew, you know, had a good kind of market fit. 00:13:45.570 --> 00:13:49.650 And we wanted to kind of take what we knew, but also make it better. 00:13:49.650 --> 00:13:52.410 But the key thing, like it was really making it feel like Joe. 00:13:52.410 --> 00:13:56.490 So it was really, we had to really kind of have that, you know, I think 00:13:56.490 --> 00:14:00.810 if we had not been so close that personality stuff that I think comes 00:14:00.810 --> 00:14:02.930 through in the product, wouldn't have, wouldn't have been as strong. 00:14:03.020 --> 00:14:03.320 Yeah. 00:14:03.680 --> 00:14:04.100 Colin: As well. 00:14:04.250 --> 00:14:04.430 Yeah. 00:14:04.430 --> 00:14:05.030 So it's interesting. 00:14:05.030 --> 00:14:07.610 Cause you said before, when you sit on this, you thought you were to hire 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:11.840 someone else to kind of represent you and work with us and it's difficult 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.490 as it was for you as a drain to be on. 00:14:13.490 --> 00:14:15.200 I feel like it made for a much better product. 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.770 Having someone who cared so deeply about the brand understood Joe so 00:14:18.770 --> 00:14:20.780 well can represent what he carries. 00:14:22.030 --> 00:14:23.339 I feel like that showed up in the product. 00:14:23.459 --> 00:14:25.890 So, you know, who knows what the alternative, you know, at the door 00:14:25.890 --> 00:14:28.920 would have been, but I feel like it really contributed heavily to 00:14:28.920 --> 00:14:29.719 Nikki Wicks: create such a good product. 00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:32.430 Last thing I'll say on that is also understanding our audience. 00:14:32.449 --> 00:14:37.370 Like we knew, you know, we had 600,000 people signed up to our previous 00:14:37.640 --> 00:14:40.849 products over five years, which was the PDF business I mentioned. 00:14:41.180 --> 00:14:43.219 So we really understood our audiences as well. 00:14:43.219 --> 00:14:46.400 So we're also kind of able to really go like, no, that's not going to 00:14:46.400 --> 00:14:48.140 work for our, for our community. 00:14:48.500 --> 00:14:50.719 So yeah, I think it's worked out. 00:14:50.719 --> 00:14:53.839 I mean, I'm, I'm now finally stepping back a little bit we've we finally 00:14:53.839 --> 00:14:57.949 hired a product leader who's come into to kind of hopefully take 00:14:57.949 --> 00:15:00.319 it to the next level, but yeah, 00:15:00.319 --> 00:15:02.329 Nicki: which is a great next step in the journey. 00:15:02.329 --> 00:15:05.420 I mean, Nikki, you mentioned that you talked about numbers of 00:15:05.420 --> 00:15:07.130 customers in the PDF business. 00:15:07.130 --> 00:15:09.109 I want us to talk to you a little bit, or if you could tell us a little bit 00:15:09.109 --> 00:15:14.359 about how you identify what success for the digital products the app would be, 00:15:14.599 --> 00:15:15.920 and then how you're doing against those. 00:15:17.880 --> 00:15:18.210 Nikki Wicks: Yeah. 00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:22.800 So we, we had no idea really like what it was going to, what it was going to do. 00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:26.790 I mean, the big challenge was obviously we couldn't, we, we 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:28.950 launched on iOS only first. 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:32.760 We didn't have the budget or the resources to do both at the same time. 00:15:33.090 --> 00:15:35.910 We also knew that we wanted to build it natively on iOS. 00:15:35.910 --> 00:15:39.690 So there wasn't really ever an option to launch. 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:40.400 So we knew. 00:15:41.145 --> 00:15:43.965 We will, you know, one of our core values as a, as a brand 00:15:43.965 --> 00:15:45.165 is like fitness for everyone. 00:15:45.165 --> 00:15:49.815 So, you know, our YouTube channel, for example, which is still a huge part of 00:15:49.815 --> 00:15:53.775 our brand, which we continue to give away, you know, to, to give free workouts. 00:15:53.775 --> 00:15:56.985 We believe everyone should have access to fitness wherever they can buy the app 00:15:56.985 --> 00:16:01.905 or not for the app, but we've w with the, with the product because we were cutting 00:16:01.905 --> 00:16:06.315 off the iOS, the Android users, we never really knew how many people were going to 00:16:06.435 --> 00:16:08.325 potentially sign up, but we did some work 00:16:08.325 --> 00:16:09.855 Nicki: together on that to kind of guesstimate. 00:16:10.335 --> 00:16:10.575 Yeah. 00:16:10.575 --> 00:16:10.815 We 00:16:10.875 --> 00:16:11.475 Nikki Wicks: guesstimated. 00:16:11.475 --> 00:16:14.355 And also what we, didn't what we didn't predict, obviously, you know, 00:16:14.475 --> 00:16:18.045 I think important to mention that the context of last year, like as a 00:16:18.045 --> 00:16:22.455 brand, we had this huge, you know, moment with P with Joe, which, which 00:16:22.455 --> 00:16:27.225 grew our, you know, our audience massively, which we had not planned for. 00:16:27.285 --> 00:16:29.745 And obviously we'd started building the app long before then. 00:16:29.865 --> 00:16:34.605 We had a really incredible launch, like we so, so we had. 00:16:35.435 --> 00:16:40.444 I think we had 38,000 pre-orders on the app, which you know, apple 00:16:40.444 --> 00:16:44.645 sort of shared some numbers and they pre-ordering is really strong in gaming, 00:16:44.915 --> 00:16:47.824 but they hadn't really seen from what I understand, it wasn't particularly, 00:16:48.064 --> 00:16:52.055 you know, people don't pre-order apps that much from I, from I understand. 00:16:52.265 --> 00:16:54.755 So that was a really good sign that there was like this 00:16:54.755 --> 00:16:56.464 really kind of hungry audience. 00:16:56.464 --> 00:16:59.555 I mean, 38,000 people was a great, you know, so the day it went 00:16:59.555 --> 00:17:03.485 live, it was pre-installed into nearly 40,000 people's hands. 00:17:03.485 --> 00:17:06.575 And then, and yeah, we've had a, you know, we've, we were super 00:17:06.575 --> 00:17:07.774 happy with, with the numbers. 00:17:07.774 --> 00:17:12.845 It's completely blown our expectations without sharing specific numbers. 00:17:12.845 --> 00:17:12.994 Yeah. 00:17:13.075 --> 00:17:15.234 Nicki: Well, I mean, if there are some things we can say about, you've 00:17:15.234 --> 00:17:19.585 been number one in the app store on numerous occasions got 4.8 stars, 00:17:19.585 --> 00:17:21.815 I think almost pushing it 4.9. 00:17:22.439 --> 00:17:24.415 So you've got a really kind of engaged, happy. 00:17:25.260 --> 00:17:25.890 No, the customer 00:17:25.890 --> 00:17:26.340 Nikki Wicks: base. 00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:27.810 Yeah, really, really happy yet. 00:17:28.110 --> 00:17:30.060 We've got 17,000 reviews. 00:17:30.060 --> 00:17:31.620 The reviews are coming in really quickly. 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.254 We get lots of feedback. 00:17:34.710 --> 00:17:38.040 We're, we're, we're developing it like super quickly. 00:17:38.040 --> 00:17:39.450 Like we're fixing things all the time. 00:17:39.450 --> 00:17:42.150 We, we, we knew that we launched with, you know, things we wanted to 00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:43.680 add and we're kind of coming back. 00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:46.320 You know, coming to the end of those initial things now. 00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:46.919 Yeah. 00:17:46.919 --> 00:17:47.639 We're super happy. 00:17:47.639 --> 00:17:49.494 I mean, we've got massive ambition. 00:17:50.340 --> 00:17:52.649 It's, it's very, very, quite organic as well. 00:17:52.649 --> 00:17:55.889 Like the audience, the, the, the kind of acquisition has been very organic. 00:17:55.889 --> 00:17:59.850 So what kind of, we need, I can share a number of, we we've, we've kind of been 00:17:59.879 --> 00:18:05.879 very close to w w w we're very close to a million downloads, which so six months 00:18:05.879 --> 00:18:08.070 in, like, we're really happy with that. 00:18:08.070 --> 00:18:10.590 I always say to me, but I've got no idea if that's good or not. 00:18:10.800 --> 00:18:14.610 I don't know what I've, I don't know if that compared to other apps or I've got no 00:18:14.610 --> 00:18:16.788 idea, but for us that's a big milestone. 00:18:18.149 --> 00:18:20.159 And yeah, we're just excited to, we're sick. 00:18:20.159 --> 00:18:22.620 We're only six months in, and so we're still learning every day. 00:18:22.899 --> 00:18:23.040 Nicki: Yeah. 00:18:23.090 --> 00:18:26.330 Which is incredible given, as you say so much of it's been organic and 00:18:26.330 --> 00:18:28.280 built on Joe's already existing brand. 00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:33.030 How was your relationship with customers changes as a result of the product? 00:18:33.210 --> 00:18:36.689 I mean, I guess you mentioned it was launched in such unusual circumstances. 00:18:36.689 --> 00:18:39.870 So even the way people are thinking about fitness has changed kind of 00:18:39.870 --> 00:18:41.370 against the backdrop of the pandemic. 00:18:41.370 --> 00:18:44.189 Less people are going to gyms when people are thinking about home fitness, 00:18:44.189 --> 00:18:47.100 but how do you feel your relationship with your customers has changed 00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:50.389 Nikki Wicks: slightly separate, but similar, one of the big concerns 00:18:50.389 --> 00:18:55.550 we had around the app and it, and it scaling so quickly, which we 00:18:56.210 --> 00:19:01.700 thought we hoped it would was the, was the customer service question. 00:19:01.850 --> 00:19:02.210 Yes. 00:19:02.389 --> 00:19:04.939 And we've gone, we've had a bit of a journey as a business. 00:19:04.939 --> 00:19:09.230 Like we were the star of the sort of five, six years ago. 00:19:09.230 --> 00:19:15.015 We went from like kind of, no, you know, literally Joe, you know, Any staff doing 00:19:15.015 --> 00:19:20.445 all the, when he first started selling the PDF to like 50 customer service staff. 00:19:20.745 --> 00:19:24.165 And we've kind of gone down over the last three or four years to a team 00:19:24.165 --> 00:19:26.565 of around 15 customer service people. 00:19:27.285 --> 00:19:31.845 And what we were worried about was that when we launched the app, we've hopefully 00:19:31.845 --> 00:19:36.675 tons of users, wherever we were going to be kind of overwhelmed by customer support 00:19:36.705 --> 00:19:41.745 inquiries, because people that come on the journey that they need help with different 00:19:41.745 --> 00:19:44.805 things from like they get injured and they want advice around the food. 00:19:44.805 --> 00:19:47.715 And so customer service is the kind of biggest part of our 00:19:48.015 --> 00:19:49.530 company in terms of the team. 00:19:50.565 --> 00:19:51.705 So we were really mindful of that. 00:19:51.705 --> 00:19:55.485 And one of the things we really wanted to do was build was preempt 00:19:55.485 --> 00:19:59.835 some of those questions, what we had historically got on the PDF and 00:19:59.835 --> 00:20:01.155 tried to build it into the product. 00:20:01.785 --> 00:20:04.335 And it's just been incredible, like the, considering the 00:20:04.335 --> 00:20:05.715 volume of customers we've got. 00:20:06.558 --> 00:20:10.995 We haven't had to hire any additional customer service and we're at a much 00:20:11.025 --> 00:20:12.255 lower numbers than we were with. 00:20:13.155 --> 00:20:13.395 Thank you. 00:20:13.395 --> 00:20:14.055 That was phenomenal. 00:20:14.175 --> 00:20:17.655 Nicki: I mean, you were just saying you're about to have a million downloads and you 00:20:17.655 --> 00:20:21.254 protect, and you basically have managed to keep a customer service team at around 15. 00:20:21.754 --> 00:20:22.175 Nikki Wicks: Yeah. 00:20:22.215 --> 00:20:25.115 And it's actually, actually, I think it's yeah, just under 15. 00:20:25.115 --> 00:20:29.905 And we we, we, we have seen no signs that we need to scale it or grow that. 00:20:29.915 --> 00:20:33.425 Cause we've, we've, we've fixed so many of the issues we previously 00:20:33.425 --> 00:20:34.835 had in the product design. 00:20:35.254 --> 00:20:36.035 I still can't. 00:20:36.035 --> 00:20:39.035 I can't believe that we're only really six months in and we're learning and you know, 00:20:39.035 --> 00:20:40.325 we're getting lots of great feedback. 00:20:40.325 --> 00:20:41.345 The relationship with the customer. 00:20:41.345 --> 00:20:41.405 Yeah. 00:20:42.389 --> 00:20:47.159 You know, very close, like people still send Joe, you know, DMS on Instagram every 00:20:47.159 --> 00:20:51.419 night and Joe voice notes, people you know, he'll do, he'll send like 50 voice 00:20:51.419 --> 00:20:53.669 notes or video messages on his Instagram. 00:20:53.669 --> 00:20:56.760 So he he's like the frontline of customer service in some ways. 00:20:57.120 --> 00:20:58.770 I mean, I'd have 4 million followers on Instagram. 00:20:58.770 --> 00:21:00.419 And so answer your dams. 00:21:00.419 --> 00:21:04.679 I mean, he runs all of his social media himself and answers things personally. 00:21:04.679 --> 00:21:07.002 So he gets a lot of really quick feedback. 00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:11.669 I mean we've, if that the, I think the apps, the apps gone down once 00:21:11.939 --> 00:21:15.149 and it was actually a bigger, I think it was a bigger incident. 00:21:15.320 --> 00:21:15.470 Yeah. 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:16.850 It was the third party services. 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.450 The internet went down or something, actually we, yeah, we knew within 00:21:20.450 --> 00:21:23.780 like a second because Joe had like a hundred messages going into the 00:21:23.780 --> 00:21:27.260 apps down and then, and then we got all the alerts from the system. 00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:29.270 So our, our audience are very engaged. 00:21:29.620 --> 00:21:32.960 They always have been, but I'd say the app has just given them something 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.030 new and exciting to, to talk about. 00:21:35.030 --> 00:21:35.419 So yeah. 00:21:36.225 --> 00:21:39.375 I wouldn't say it's changed that in a change, in a positive way. 00:21:40.531 --> 00:21:42.945 And the one thing that is great, you can change the app. 00:21:43.455 --> 00:21:46.995 You can add new features all the time and you know, the feedback 00:21:46.995 --> 00:21:49.155 is like, oh, you're, you know, you're listening to us like you're. 00:21:49.425 --> 00:21:51.705 And so they feel really like, they're part of it as well. 00:21:51.995 --> 00:21:52.145 Well, 00:21:52.145 --> 00:21:55.235 Nicki: of course he developed the app and kind of partnership with your customers 00:21:55.235 --> 00:21:56.825 by having a Beecher initially, didn't you? 00:21:56.825 --> 00:21:59.045 That was the kind of closed beta group, but they were 00:21:59.045 --> 00:22:00.545 giving kind of regular updates. 00:22:00.875 --> 00:22:01.505 Nikki Wicks: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:01.505 --> 00:22:03.065 We, we, we had a really good beta. 00:22:03.652 --> 00:22:05.825 I think we ran that for three or three months maybe. 00:22:06.125 --> 00:22:06.575 Yeah. 00:22:06.605 --> 00:22:10.475 And, but yeah, even now, like some of the best ideas I've come from the 00:22:10.475 --> 00:22:15.335 audience, like, you know, we just launched a small feature a couple of 00:22:15.335 --> 00:22:19.355 weeks ago, like favoriting workouts, which sounds like really obvious, but 00:22:19.355 --> 00:22:21.365 we hadn't built it in, but it was. 00:22:22.100 --> 00:22:23.570 We kept hearing it and hearing it. 00:22:23.570 --> 00:22:27.050 And that was something that was actually, this is, and it's only become a problem 00:22:27.320 --> 00:22:30.860 as in later cycles, as they, as, as people got more workouts in their library. 00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:31.040 Right. 00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:34.190 So actually it wasn't a thing that was really needed, but they told us 00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:36.200 first and then we managed to build it. 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:37.760 And we're kind of doing that all the time. 00:22:38.270 --> 00:22:41.660 They're the best, they're the best developers really in, in from an 00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:44.480 ideation perspective, because they're constantly telling you what they want. 00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:45.520 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:45.550 --> 00:22:45.790 A hundred 00:22:45.790 --> 00:22:46.150 Nicki: percent. 00:22:46.450 --> 00:22:49.780 Colin, what do you think us to learn as part of the journey? 00:22:51.130 --> 00:22:54.040 Colin: Well, I think, you know, the thing we talked about earlier where 00:22:54.040 --> 00:22:57.940 we had some challenges with getting the initial budget matched to the 00:22:57.950 --> 00:23:01.390 scope, we had some internal things we had to change, but how we did that. 00:23:02.650 --> 00:23:05.320 So I think that was a big lesson for us to kind of figure out how 00:23:05.320 --> 00:23:07.660 can we minimize the chances of that kind of thing happening again. 00:23:08.360 --> 00:23:10.520 Funnily enough, that kinda thing hadn't happened in my whole time been in 00:23:10.540 --> 00:23:13.900 S two before, but still you have to take that kinda thing quite seriously. 00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:16.120 So that's one big thing in terms of how we've been. 00:23:17.370 --> 00:23:20.370 Putting in checks and balances to kind of minimize that chance. 00:23:20.370 --> 00:23:23.520 Again, I think other things that we've learned is that, you know, when you, when 00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:26.429 you, it's one thing to take a product to, to market, it's another thing to 00:23:26.429 --> 00:23:30.330 continue to, to be with that product through its optimization and its growth. 00:23:30.419 --> 00:23:33.600 That's something that we haven't done as much in the past is that as we would like, 00:23:33.600 --> 00:23:35.091 it's, it's a space that we love to be in. 00:23:36.185 --> 00:23:39.959 And so doing that and for such a long time, sometimes they're just after it 00:23:39.959 --> 00:23:42.449 launches for a bit, but we've got a relationship with you where you want to 00:23:42.449 --> 00:23:43.740 continue doing this for quite some time. 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:48.719 So I think that's an interesting growth area for, for us too, and how it's 00:23:48.719 --> 00:23:50.100 managing a longer-term relationship. 00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:53.490 Once a product is live because we're accustomed to spending, you know, 00:23:53.879 --> 00:23:56.580 85% of our energy getting the product to market and then spending the rest 00:23:56.580 --> 00:23:59.699 of that time, getting the product back to the, to the kind to own or 00:23:59.699 --> 00:24:01.439 giving to their another third party. 00:24:01.949 --> 00:24:04.679 So that's been a really wonderful journey for us. 00:24:04.679 --> 00:24:07.080 And again, it's been doing in a partnership has been a 00:24:07.080 --> 00:24:08.340 really great way to do that. 00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:13.459 I think you know, other things too are just, there's a time when Hm. 00:24:14.285 --> 00:24:17.745 You know, putting aside for a moment, the body coaches profile, there's a time 00:24:17.745 --> 00:24:21.195 where we were very reluctant to take on a client like you, because we've, you 00:24:21.195 --> 00:24:25.035 know, we tend to operate much more in this sort of corporate space, even if 00:24:25.035 --> 00:24:27.165 it's a new venture firm corporation, wherever, but it's corporate too. 00:24:27.465 --> 00:24:29.715 They do under, they're not coming in naive about digital necessarily. 00:24:29.715 --> 00:24:31.525 And they do understand what it takes to do sort of thing. 00:24:32.476 --> 00:24:36.945 But I think it having this experience with you maybe open my eyes, at least 00:24:36.945 --> 00:24:40.665 personally, about being more discerning about what we would take on what we 00:24:40.665 --> 00:24:41.985 would, when it's a founder led brand. 00:24:42.014 --> 00:24:45.465 That's one of the things that we've been a bit cautious of because 00:24:45.465 --> 00:24:48.885 sometimes decision-making that happens there, doesn't follow the kind of 00:24:48.885 --> 00:24:52.905 the paradigm that you expect when you are working with a large corporate 00:24:52.905 --> 00:24:55.665 or something that they've got systems for checking things and managing 00:24:55.965 --> 00:24:57.675 different aspects of the whole journey. 00:24:58.554 --> 00:25:04.485 So often when we have founded brands that come to us, we're a little bit Hmm. 00:25:04.514 --> 00:25:06.014 Not sure it's the right thing for us to do. 00:25:06.825 --> 00:25:09.585 And for quite some time I was in the mindset of like, I just don't think 00:25:09.585 --> 00:25:12.795 we should do that anymore, but I think the experience with the body coach. 00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:16.170 Open my eyes to there's it's, it's more subtle than that. 00:25:16.230 --> 00:25:18.120 It's not, it's not so core. 00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:20.410 So that's definitely a personal thing for me. 00:25:22.290 --> 00:25:25.650 And I also think that, you know, like I said, at the beginning, one of the things 00:25:25.650 --> 00:25:28.710 I'm aiming for when we start our projects is to build this kind of partnership. 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:32.940 And if you have too much gap in your experience between the last time you 00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:35.430 saw that happen, the next time you see it happen, you can start to lose faith. 00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:37.380 You know, it's really, they think, well, maybe that was a fluke. 00:25:37.830 --> 00:25:43.920 And I feel like the experience I've had with this this program of work has kind of 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.020 renewed my faith, that this is possible. 00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:47.850 You really can create these relationships, even though 00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:48.910 it's a commercial relationship. 00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:54.150 You can still create the connection on the human level that does allow you to weather 00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:56.280 things and celebrate together as well. 00:25:56.280 --> 00:25:59.310 Like we talked about the downside, but the upside was that the joy 00:25:59.340 --> 00:26:01.314 and the emotion that you saw? 00:26:01.750 --> 00:26:03.270 I remember on launch day, we were all on zoom. 00:26:03.270 --> 00:26:04.500 So it couldn't be in the same place. 00:26:05.399 --> 00:26:07.379 I've got this image burned in my memory. 00:26:07.980 --> 00:26:08.370 Yeah. 00:26:09.170 --> 00:26:10.100 So excited about it. 00:26:10.100 --> 00:26:13.070 And we had, you know, people had their zoom background being the body coach 00:26:13.070 --> 00:26:16.100 or something blue or something that represented the brand in some way. 00:26:16.100 --> 00:26:19.879 And there was just such a genuine, authentic excitement by everybody, 00:26:19.879 --> 00:26:22.250 not just the people on the product side, but the developers and the 00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:24.110 testers and the delivery people. 00:26:24.110 --> 00:26:28.790 And so, and it was all very, you could feel that energy was very real and that 00:26:28.790 --> 00:26:33.620 kind of you know, you can always strive for something once you've seen it once. 00:26:33.620 --> 00:26:33.770 Right. 00:26:33.770 --> 00:26:35.510 Once you've seen you go, can I notice as possible? 00:26:35.780 --> 00:26:37.010 It helps you do it again? 00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:38.420 Cause you go, I know, I know you can get there. 00:26:38.780 --> 00:26:41.600 So for me, that's another thing that I carry with me as a bit of a lesson, 00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:46.460 a bit of a, a reminder with every client we've had, since I'm using 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:49.250 that as my reference point, I'm trying to create that atmosphere again. 00:26:49.520 --> 00:26:50.480 And of course it's not me alone. 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:54.590 I think as to Scott that kind of in its DNA to collaborate in that way. 00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:58.220 But as part of the PR you know, responsible for delivery in our 00:26:58.220 --> 00:27:01.430 organization, that's part of our job is to try to create those 00:27:01.460 --> 00:27:04.280 bonds between people between. 00:27:05.010 --> 00:27:08.370 Teams between clients between, you know, even other agencies, if there's another 00:27:08.370 --> 00:27:09.690 agency involved in our relationship. 00:27:09.690 --> 00:27:12.180 So that for me is a huge, a huge reference point. 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:15.480 I mean, I've said this a number of times to people on our teams that 00:27:16.020 --> 00:27:18.600 this will be a project you will reference for the rest of your career. 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.020 You will experience things about how you collaborate, how, 00:27:22.130 --> 00:27:24.300 how you deal with challenges. 00:27:25.208 --> 00:27:28.680 How do you create a sense of purpose? 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:34.290 All of these things are very rare in the world of agency life. 00:27:34.770 --> 00:27:38.640 And I think that having that as a reference point is something 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.460 that is invaluable to have the reference point for all the people on 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:41.700 Nikki Wicks: the team. 00:27:42.590 --> 00:27:43.040 Yeah, I agree. 00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:45.980 And I just, I dunno you mentioned the other thing I've 00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:46.900 been quite interested in about. 00:27:47.685 --> 00:27:49.785 As a CA as a, I guess, as a client. 00:27:49.845 --> 00:27:50.115 Yeah. 00:27:50.145 --> 00:27:52.845 I always feel weird called a nicer client because I spend more time 00:27:52.845 --> 00:27:57.105 with us to the nice thought and, you know, unfortunately over zoom now. 00:27:57.105 --> 00:27:59.625 Cause I was in, I was in the studio like two or three times a week, 00:27:59.865 --> 00:28:01.644 right before, before lockdown. 00:28:02.565 --> 00:28:04.995 And I used to love coming there cause it was, you know, it was just you 00:28:04.995 --> 00:28:09.765 know, I prefer working in a great with people, but we were weird business in 00:28:09.765 --> 00:28:12.465 a sense of like, we're a tech start. 00:28:12.465 --> 00:28:14.235 We're essentially now like a tech startup. 00:28:14.325 --> 00:28:17.275 Like I feel like a tech startup, we were starting a tech company. 00:28:18.465 --> 00:28:21.975 And we're building this happen, you know, we're building a team, but like we're 00:28:21.975 --> 00:28:25.275 also not a startup, but we're a brand that's been, you know, Joe's been built 00:28:25.365 --> 00:28:28.935 the body coach brand, you know, almost 10 years really from when he started. 00:28:28.935 --> 00:28:33.885 So we kind of like a really established brand and yet we're now 00:28:33.895 --> 00:28:36.165 kind of a tech stop and just to on. 00:28:37.155 --> 00:28:39.525 In terms of you know, the budgets and stuff. 00:28:39.535 --> 00:28:42.345 I think the other thing is like, when we've never raised any money, 00:28:42.375 --> 00:28:45.465 like this was our own money, this was like Joe's and the business, 00:28:45.675 --> 00:28:47.415 you know, real personal investment. 00:28:47.415 --> 00:28:50.055 So that also made it, I think, even more sensitive. 00:28:50.055 --> 00:28:54.135 And I think you guys were always really aware of that and knew, and I think that's 00:28:54.135 --> 00:28:58.305 why it was, we all had that difficult period, but it was knowing that it was 00:28:58.305 --> 00:29:03.195 actually not a kind of VC money that we were just sort of throwing into a project. 00:29:03.195 --> 00:29:06.705 So, but it's been like, you know, we overcame that very quickly. 00:29:06.705 --> 00:29:10.005 And I think that the thing that you just said about, I think it's just like trust. 00:29:10.005 --> 00:29:15.345 So we had to, we had no choice, like, not, not that we didn't have a choice, 00:29:15.345 --> 00:29:19.635 but we had to trust the process and that we have to trust you so implicitly 00:29:19.635 --> 00:29:24.135 because the we didn't really have any of, we had no expertise on our side. 00:29:24.135 --> 00:29:26.355 And I said to Joe that we really just needed. 00:29:27.105 --> 00:29:29.445 Trust that this is we're working with the right people. 00:29:29.805 --> 00:29:33.375 And that came, I think, not from your credit or seeing other work you've done. 00:29:33.375 --> 00:29:34.995 It was like, these are good people. 00:29:34.995 --> 00:29:37.815 Like we know, because that relationship we'd grown, you 00:29:37.815 --> 00:29:38.955 know, through all the meetings. 00:29:38.955 --> 00:29:42.975 And like you say, the celebration side of it's been really important. 00:29:43.065 --> 00:29:48.465 I think we've all kind of celebrated those moments and, and been in the 00:29:48.465 --> 00:29:51.645 back, you know, the, the, the, the tricky, sticky, sticky stuff as well. 00:29:51.915 --> 00:29:53.775 So, yeah, I basically agreed. 00:29:53.895 --> 00:29:55.005 I'm just repeating what you said. 00:29:55.695 --> 00:29:55.885 It also 00:29:55.915 --> 00:29:57.085 Colin: makes me think of something else as well. 00:29:58.085 --> 00:30:00.395 There's I think there's some things I don't know for people who are 00:30:00.395 --> 00:30:03.365 watching this how, what their businesses are like and how they can 00:30:03.365 --> 00:30:04.625 relate to the body coach experience. 00:30:04.625 --> 00:30:07.295 But there are a few things that I feel are very relevant 00:30:07.295 --> 00:30:08.735 that maybe aren't self-evident. 00:30:08.735 --> 00:30:13.265 So for instance, you know, a lot of times when we working on client projects, the 00:30:13.265 --> 00:30:17.675 people who are sponsoring it, so the, the equivalent Joe are quite distant, 00:30:17.705 --> 00:30:20.915 you know, they're very busy people and, and they, they may want to get a half an 00:30:20.915 --> 00:30:21.935 hour, then once a month kind of thing. 00:30:21.935 --> 00:30:22.895 It's very hard to get there. 00:30:23.805 --> 00:30:28.245 But I don't think that they realize the degree to which they can influence 00:30:28.275 --> 00:30:33.165 the, the energy and motivation and spirit of that team by just being there 00:30:33.195 --> 00:30:35.595 to just coming in, being there and telling people they're doing a good job. 00:30:35.595 --> 00:30:37.335 And Joe is a master at that. 00:30:37.575 --> 00:30:40.995 He would come to, you know, almost all of the show and tells, and he would 00:30:40.995 --> 00:30:43.605 just tell people that he was really proud of the work they were doing and 00:30:43.605 --> 00:30:46.485 that that's fuel for a team to feel like they're really doing a good job. 00:30:46.485 --> 00:30:50.625 And I just think that that's such a small, simple thing to do that. 00:30:51.257 --> 00:30:54.795 It just be good for people to realize how much power they have in their voice 00:30:54.945 --> 00:30:58.485 and being present in supporting how a team can deliver and how exciting it 00:30:58.485 --> 00:30:59.655 can be in how engaged they can feel. 00:31:00.771 --> 00:31:03.525 And I think there's a lot of little things like that in terms of, in a way 00:31:03.525 --> 00:31:07.365 the body coach project for us is a bit of a microcosm for what we do on other 00:31:07.365 --> 00:31:12.285 projects, in some sense scale wise, not necessarily, not necessarily, but 00:31:12.285 --> 00:31:14.935 in terms of the way that, cause it was only dealing with you primarily 00:31:14.935 --> 00:31:16.005 in with Joe from time to time. 00:31:17.003 --> 00:31:19.485 But in often on other projects with our client are larger. 00:31:20.280 --> 00:31:23.370 We will have, you know, a whole suite of individuals that we're dealing with. 00:31:23.380 --> 00:31:27.180 And so it multiplies who is complexity, but the foundations, 00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:30.210 the fundamentals of making those things successful are the same. 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:31.080 There's no difference. 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:35.100 The trust you talked about is critical and you know, and I think you, it's 00:31:35.100 --> 00:31:37.830 very interesting to hear you play back the story of what it felt like 00:31:37.830 --> 00:31:41.070 for you, because you recognize look at, we just have to trust them. 00:31:41.070 --> 00:31:42.510 We don't know, we don't know better. 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:46.230 I think the truth of that exists even with our other clients who kind 00:31:46.230 --> 00:31:49.290 of know better, but they wouldn't come to us if they knew better, if 00:31:49.290 --> 00:31:50.330 they could do the job, they wouldn't 00:31:50.340 --> 00:31:50.940 Nikki Wicks: think as well. 00:31:51.050 --> 00:31:53.930 The thing about that you mentioned about Joe is the thing that Joe can really 00:31:53.930 --> 00:31:57.560 bring, which I can bring to an extent, but no, no one can do it more than Joe is. 00:31:57.890 --> 00:32:02.510 We care so much about this product in terms of how it changes people's lives. 00:32:03.020 --> 00:32:06.710 It matters to us that it works and that people can use it and improve 00:32:06.710 --> 00:32:07.730 their lives and their health. 00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:09.350 And I think we care so much about it. 00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:15.330 And I think we had to like, almost make sure you guys cared as much as we did. 00:32:15.330 --> 00:32:17.850 And I think that's come really come through. 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.190 Probably Joe's the best advocate for that. 00:32:20.190 --> 00:32:23.630 Like I think even that, you know, now the WhatsApp group we've got, like, 00:32:23.630 --> 00:32:27.600 when someone shares a transformation story, like we still share it with 00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:32.610 you guys that, because it's not just remember that this product is, is helping 00:32:32.610 --> 00:32:34.860 so many people and like that's cause that, you know, ultimately that's the 00:32:34.860 --> 00:32:39.660 motivation, you know, for, for, for, for Joe and for me and for us as a brand. 00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:44.700 So it wouldn't wouldn't work if you didn't care what we were trying to do. 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:49.170 And so like, even now there's still going, like we have to make sure you still care. 00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:52.740 Like, and that I think that's naturally still happening because 00:32:52.860 --> 00:32:56.280 we're still sharing these, you know, these stories in, in, in, in, in, 00:32:56.310 --> 00:32:58.050 over the weekends or like WhatsApp. 00:32:58.290 --> 00:33:01.560 And, and when you said about some of the team that this will be one of the projects 00:33:01.560 --> 00:33:03.480 I look back on, like, I hope it's because. 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.620 You know, and I might just be a bit idealistic, but because they know 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:10.830 that it is a really great product that is really changing people's 00:33:10.830 --> 00:33:15.690 lives because it does have people that use it and, and stick to it. 00:33:15.690 --> 00:33:19.380 Like they do turn their lives around, whether it's through losing 00:33:19.380 --> 00:33:22.560 weight or exercising, you know, for mental health or feeling good. 00:33:23.070 --> 00:33:25.500 So, yeah, there's that, and I, you know, I genuinely do think 00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:28.620 we've instilled this real feeling of like, we all care about it. 00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:28.920 Yeah. 00:33:29.450 --> 00:33:33.410 Colin: I mean, us twos drive is to make products that make a meaningful difference 00:33:33.410 --> 00:33:35.840 in the world and this fits so neatly. 00:33:35.840 --> 00:33:38.600 So people come to work at us too, because they want to work on 00:33:38.600 --> 00:33:39.650 projects that are going to do that. 00:33:39.980 --> 00:33:43.190 And so I think that the team, and I think it reflect on the team that we have on 00:33:43.190 --> 00:33:47.330 this, on this project, they all care so deeply about the impact they're making. 00:33:48.530 --> 00:33:50.450 And I think that's, what's, it's probably, you know, brought them 00:33:50.450 --> 00:33:55.010 together to work so well collaboratively across a different, difficult time. 00:33:55.010 --> 00:33:56.870 A lot of these people actually never met in person, right? 00:33:56.870 --> 00:33:59.540 So these people joined the project during the pandemic and have never met. 00:33:59.540 --> 00:33:59.810 And yet. 00:34:00.605 --> 00:34:03.195 You looked at the cohesiveness, you wouldn't believe this is 00:34:03.235 --> 00:34:04.245 team had never met each other. 00:34:04.395 --> 00:34:04.995 Nicki: No, I agree. 00:34:04.995 --> 00:34:05.595 Extraordinary. 00:34:06.095 --> 00:34:09.395 It's a combination of the authenticity Nicky of you and Joe and the way you 00:34:09.395 --> 00:34:10.895 work with people, which is so rare. 00:34:11.135 --> 00:34:14.825 And then also the kind of adversity of the journey we went on together against 00:34:14.825 --> 00:34:19.235 the context of the pandemic that brought people close together in a way that's 00:34:19.235 --> 00:34:23.375 really rare and did enable all of the team to feel like actually every single 00:34:23.375 --> 00:34:26.945 penny and every decision was taken and thought about in a way as if it was their 00:34:26.945 --> 00:34:29.615 own, which is a kind of real rare thing. 00:34:29.615 --> 00:34:30.485 You always hope for that. 00:34:30.485 --> 00:34:32.195 It's called in the set in a client relationship. 00:34:32.735 --> 00:34:35.105 I want to get back to you talked about Headspace. 00:34:35.572 --> 00:34:38.435 You know, you went into that room and there were 350 people and you thought 00:34:38.435 --> 00:34:42.605 how Joe, and I don't want that right now, but if we acknowledge that your 00:34:42.605 --> 00:34:45.905 business has gone through a digital transformation, a word that's bandied 00:34:45.905 --> 00:34:49.325 around a lot, not everyone likes, but essentially you've gone from being analog. 00:34:49.325 --> 00:34:53.825 As you described to very much a digital or kind of tech startup, what has been the 00:34:53.825 --> 00:34:55.595 impact on your business at that process? 00:34:55.595 --> 00:34:57.995 And what do you imagine kind of the next steps. 00:34:58.859 --> 00:34:58.980 Nikki Wicks: Yeah. 00:34:59.009 --> 00:35:03.060 One of the questions like Joe's constantly asked is Ann and me is like, can you 00:35:03.060 --> 00:35:09.779 have a really successful tech product or an app and not have 300 people? 00:35:10.898 --> 00:35:14.490 I hope the answer's yes, but the answer is definitely not like you 00:35:14.490 --> 00:35:16.785 can have five people or 10 people. 00:35:17.730 --> 00:35:21.000 So we've now, you know, we accept that now we acknowledge it. 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.089 And we know that, you know, with technology can't work, you know, from 00:35:24.089 --> 00:35:28.109 what I now know is that if you're gonna have a successful product with this 00:35:28.169 --> 00:35:31.770 reaching lots of people around the world, and you want to keep making it 00:35:31.770 --> 00:35:33.810 better as well, you do need people. 00:35:33.810 --> 00:35:37.890 So, you know, I know at the moment we're, we, we've got like four, a team of like 00:35:37.890 --> 00:35:43.770 40 we've you, you know, obviously sitting within you guys across Android and iOS and 00:35:43.830 --> 00:35:47.250 essentially, you know, we're at the stage now where we're starting to think about, 00:35:47.549 --> 00:35:51.089 well, not think about we're starting to bring out, bring the team in house, right? 00:35:51.209 --> 00:35:53.490 So the product lead was our first key hire. 00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:58.049 We're now looking for a head of tech as you know, and that will 00:35:58.049 --> 00:36:02.430 very much be the first hire of what is probably going to be. 00:36:02.730 --> 00:36:07.319 We, we think, you know, within 12 months maybe we'll have a team of around 40, you 00:36:07.319 --> 00:36:12.299 know, it's a tech team around 40 people I imagine potentially could continue to 00:36:12.299 --> 00:36:16.799 grow if we continue to grow and the app continues to grow or the, or the business, 00:36:16.830 --> 00:36:19.080 you know, so that's where we're at. 00:36:19.080 --> 00:36:24.270 And you know, even when I put the job ad out for the head of tech last 00:36:24.270 --> 00:36:26.730 week, I said, right, this is it. 00:36:26.759 --> 00:36:30.299 The ball started to write and I'm like, oh, okay. 00:36:30.299 --> 00:36:31.740 Like, do we definitely need to hire it? 00:36:32.790 --> 00:36:35.250 And I'm like, yeah, we do. 00:36:36.390 --> 00:36:41.180 So but you know, it is, it is, it is scary, but we're just kind of, you 00:36:41.180 --> 00:36:43.850 know, you guys have been really good at supporting us with that as well, in terms 00:36:43.850 --> 00:36:49.339 of hiring and just get, letting us kind of, I always feel like I, can we ask 00:36:49.339 --> 00:36:53.990 probably really stupid questions because we don't come from a technical background 00:36:53.990 --> 00:36:58.670 or we don't have the expertise and it's very kind of, you know, even now less. 00:36:58.670 --> 00:37:04.040 So I like to think I'm less naive and I was 18 months ago, but it's still kind 00:37:04.040 --> 00:37:05.609 of like, oh, do we, is this really. 00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:07.500 You know what we need to do. 00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:10.529 And obviously we're now I like to think now we're at this point 00:37:10.529 --> 00:37:13.170 where we've got a really good product and we're now like right. 00:37:13.170 --> 00:37:18.450 Building an organization around us to kind of take off some of the, the 00:37:18.450 --> 00:37:21.390 burden on, on the agency model to kind of bring some of it in house, 00:37:21.410 --> 00:37:23.670 because for long-term success, we need. 00:37:23.759 --> 00:37:24.029 Sure. 00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:24.930 Yeah, for sure. 00:37:25.049 --> 00:37:25.920 So that's where we're at. 00:37:26.750 --> 00:37:29.570 Nicki: Do you feel like you were sort of digital business will only be when 00:37:29.570 --> 00:37:33.290 you open the doors and there's kind of a team of 150 developers and designers 00:37:39.110 --> 00:37:40.940 Nikki Wicks: we haven't even got the mind right now. 00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:45.830 The whole body, each team is, as I said, is, is I think 13, 13 customer support 00:37:45.830 --> 00:37:48.950 people, me and Joe, and two other people. 00:37:48.950 --> 00:37:51.410 So there's about 16, 17 of us. 00:37:51.410 --> 00:37:51.890 I think 00:37:52.190 --> 00:37:54.950 Nicki: probably you should pause that cause I'm sure it really blaze some 00:37:54.950 --> 00:37:58.640 people's mind that actually you have built this really successful business. 00:37:59.294 --> 00:38:02.115 There's 15 or 16 of you behind that, which really is amazing. 00:38:02.595 --> 00:38:02.865 Yeah, 00:38:02.865 --> 00:38:04.845 Nikki Wicks: it's definitely a, it's definitely a small team. 00:38:05.315 --> 00:38:08.225 People always surprised, like, I think, I think we got like marketing 00:38:08.285 --> 00:38:14.495 team and, you know, Joey, Joe, and me or the marketing team you know, 00:38:14.515 --> 00:38:17.125 it's a small team, but it's exciting. 00:38:17.145 --> 00:38:20.254 We are excited about, about building, you know, building it. 00:38:20.285 --> 00:38:25.145 It's just you know, we, we didn't want to cut any corners when we 00:38:25.145 --> 00:38:28.444 built the app, but you know, the reality is, you know, we knew you 00:38:28.444 --> 00:38:30.035 guys were going to do amazing work. 00:38:30.035 --> 00:38:32.524 We loved the culture and we, the connection we had 00:38:32.524 --> 00:38:33.836 from literally from day one. 00:38:35.379 --> 00:38:39.605 But you know, at the same time we could have gone down the road and 00:38:39.605 --> 00:38:44.765 built it with a much smaller agency, much, much cheaper if you know, 00:38:44.794 --> 00:38:46.355 but we wanted to do it properly. 00:38:46.444 --> 00:38:47.645 We wanted to do it well. 00:38:47.915 --> 00:38:51.095 And we've kind of taken that approach with everything like we're looking for. 00:38:51.095 --> 00:38:54.035 We need really good people and I think the success. 00:38:54.705 --> 00:38:56.895 You know, moving forward depends on getting the right people in 00:38:56.895 --> 00:39:01.005 around us because you know, me and Joe we've hit the ceiling of what 00:39:01.005 --> 00:39:03.045 we can now do with the business. 00:39:03.045 --> 00:39:05.535 I think certainly from the product point of view. 00:39:05.835 --> 00:39:06.135 Yeah. 00:39:06.165 --> 00:39:07.155 Don't say 150. 00:39:07.595 --> 00:39:08.815 I know, wait, sorry. 00:39:09.395 --> 00:39:09.875 Sorry. 00:39:11.045 --> 00:39:12.605 Nicki: Wait for you again. 00:39:12.845 --> 00:39:15.905 We've got some great questions coming in, I guess just before we go to them, I just 00:39:15.905 --> 00:39:17.075 want to say in the he's everyone's wet. 00:39:17.075 --> 00:39:20.885 Like, you know, what is what's next for the body coach beyond the 00:39:20.885 --> 00:39:22.550 number of people you're hiring? 00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:24.095 Just in terms of growth. 00:39:24.125 --> 00:39:26.165 So everyone's got a sense of what you're doing. 00:39:26.435 --> 00:39:27.545 You mentioned Android, 00:39:28.385 --> 00:39:28.775 Nikki Wicks: so yeah. 00:39:28.775 --> 00:39:32.555 We'll, we've got the Android app coming out in December. 00:39:32.585 --> 00:39:32.735 Yeah. 00:39:34.568 --> 00:39:35.295 I mean, what's next? 00:39:35.315 --> 00:39:38.525 Like, so going back to that thing of like the small team and then not, you 00:39:38.525 --> 00:39:41.345 know, we don't plan ahead very much. 00:39:43.305 --> 00:39:46.755 You know, we, we D we do things on a whim kind of all the time. 00:39:46.755 --> 00:39:49.845 I mean, some of our brand partners, one of the, one of the things I always 00:39:49.845 --> 00:39:53.895 have to explain to, you know, we have some partnerships, we work with Gusto, 00:39:53.925 --> 00:39:57.705 we work with them and, and that, like, how can we see your content calendar? 00:39:57.945 --> 00:39:59.775 When, when, when are you posting stuff? 00:39:59.775 --> 00:40:03.115 And, you know, I'm kind of now well-versed in it, but six years on that, no, 00:40:03.115 --> 00:40:04.575 no, we don't have a content calendar. 00:40:04.905 --> 00:40:09.375 Joe posts, whatever he posts at any given time, whenever he feels like, 00:40:09.435 --> 00:40:14.055 yeah, I mean, sometimes I go on my phone and he's doing an Instagram 00:40:14.055 --> 00:40:17.565 live, like talking about, you know, and I don't even know about it. 00:40:17.815 --> 00:40:22.155 The best one was I was at home on a Saturday night and he put a posted 00:40:22.155 --> 00:40:26.625 Instagram saying, oh, I'm going to do a meet up for a walk around Richmond park. 00:40:26.655 --> 00:40:29.205 If anyone wants to join tomorrow morning, Sunday morning. 00:40:29.685 --> 00:40:33.195 And I was like, okay I probably should go. 00:40:33.645 --> 00:40:35.895 I wanted to have a lion, but I'll go just to help out. 00:40:36.285 --> 00:40:37.815 And like a thousand people turned up. 00:40:38.835 --> 00:40:43.695 So planning, isn't something we do that well, but I can tell you, we go 00:40:43.695 --> 00:40:48.705 Android, we're launching, you know, we're looking on international market 00:40:48.705 --> 00:40:51.855 so fully that when we can travel again, we've, we've, we launched in Australia 00:40:52.275 --> 00:40:56.685 and we'd love to go over there and meet some of the audience and kind of help 00:40:57.285 --> 00:40:58.695 grow the, grow the brand over there. 00:40:58.695 --> 00:41:00.075 And in the U S is a big market. 00:41:00.075 --> 00:41:01.455 We're looking at unlocking soon. 00:41:01.665 --> 00:41:03.585 But what I was saying to you earlier, what I'm really excited about is 00:41:03.585 --> 00:41:04.725 that we came into this game, right? 00:41:04.725 --> 00:41:08.445 We're going to build an app and we've built an app, and now we need 00:41:08.445 --> 00:41:11.925 to build another app for the Android users, but then it's, so I'm quite 00:41:11.925 --> 00:41:15.375 excited about what we're going to build that we don't know yet. 00:41:15.465 --> 00:41:19.425 Like whether it's, you know, TV app or what, you know, 00:41:19.455 --> 00:41:21.525 apple watch or anything else. 00:41:22.485 --> 00:41:24.225 In technology that I don't even know about yet. 00:41:24.615 --> 00:41:25.985 So I'm hoping, I'm hoping, you're going to tell. 00:41:26.855 --> 00:41:27.065 Yeah. 00:41:27.065 --> 00:41:27.395 Right. 00:41:27.665 --> 00:41:28.805 We'll do that for this. 00:41:28.835 --> 00:41:29.255 Nicki: Yeah. 00:41:30.005 --> 00:41:30.365 Brilliant. 00:41:30.365 --> 00:41:30.634 All right. 00:41:30.634 --> 00:41:34.445 So we have got laser questions and Nikki, first one for you, when you talk 00:41:34.445 --> 00:41:38.705 about growing your team has us to help inform what you need and who you recruit. 00:41:38.705 --> 00:41:40.775 You sort of answered that, but maybe you could talk a little bit about how 00:41:40.775 --> 00:41:42.215 we helped you hired the head of product. 00:41:42.575 --> 00:41:42.935 Nikki Wicks: Yeah. 00:41:42.965 --> 00:41:44.915 So, so good question. 00:41:45.005 --> 00:41:45.455 Yes. 00:41:45.455 --> 00:41:47.165 You have helped a lot. 00:41:47.595 --> 00:41:52.715 I mean, with our first hire our head of product he, that whole process 00:41:52.715 --> 00:41:55.925 was handled by, by you guys, as you know, so you, you know, you 00:41:55.925 --> 00:41:57.575 helped us with the job description. 00:41:57.755 --> 00:42:01.835 Cause I, you know, number one, I don't know what we're looking 00:42:01.835 --> 00:42:03.755 for in terms of expertise. 00:42:04.325 --> 00:42:06.555 Number two, we don't have any. 00:42:07.634 --> 00:42:09.585 We don't even have any west and I've advertised a job. 00:42:09.615 --> 00:42:11.174 They're not even good jobs to have on our website. 00:42:11.205 --> 00:42:13.935 So you literally hosted, you know, it helps with the job description, 00:42:14.115 --> 00:42:19.305 hosted it on us to jobs page and, and supported the whole process. 00:42:19.775 --> 00:42:20.105 And we should 00:42:20.105 --> 00:42:23.285 Nicki: probably say as well, I guess we also helped with that or design 00:42:23.285 --> 00:42:26.545 component, didn't we, in terms of thinking, who should you hire first? 00:42:26.555 --> 00:42:28.895 Like, what are the key roles in your organization, which is why 00:42:28.895 --> 00:42:32.075 we're now working with you on how to attack, but even that component was 00:42:32.075 --> 00:42:33.095 something we were kind of working 00:42:33.095 --> 00:42:33.605 Nikki Wicks: through with you. 00:42:33.815 --> 00:42:34.085 Yeah. 00:42:34.085 --> 00:42:37.745 So yeah, so the plan is, you know, and, and, and say, guy, who's just joined us. 00:42:37.745 --> 00:42:42.005 I had a product only last week, actually, he's now, you know, kind 00:42:42.005 --> 00:42:45.424 of really strong tech background, product background, helping us to 00:42:45.424 --> 00:42:46.805 think about the shape of that team. 00:42:47.315 --> 00:42:51.395 And the plan is that you're going to support with the head of tech role and 00:42:51.395 --> 00:42:55.174 the screening, the interviewing process, really helping us understand what we need. 00:42:56.020 --> 00:42:58.835 But long-term obviously, we're not expecting you to help us. 00:42:59.670 --> 00:43:03.060 150 people, as Nikki's just informed me, we're going to be hiring. 00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:07.799 So because you're not a recruitment, but we have definitely used you for these 00:43:07.799 --> 00:43:12.779 two key ones, which I'm really pleased about because, you know, if we find, if 00:43:12.779 --> 00:43:16.170 I had of text as good as I had a product, we're going to be in a good place. 00:43:16.610 --> 00:43:17.450 Next question. 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:18.049 How 00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:22.910 Nicki: do you manage product strategy and customer feedback while making 00:43:22.910 --> 00:43:26.299 sure you don't new sense of your long-term product, vision goals, 00:43:26.299 --> 00:43:28.460 and meeting your key PA key KPIs? 00:43:28.520 --> 00:43:29.480 That's a great question. 00:43:29.509 --> 00:43:29.900 That's a great 00:43:29.900 --> 00:43:30.200 Nikki Wicks: question. 00:43:30.680 --> 00:43:34.009 It's worth saying, obviously we have a really small team is in the body 00:43:34.009 --> 00:43:38.090 of the business, but we have a really big, robust team within us too. 00:43:38.090 --> 00:43:40.190 So we have, you know, a strategy lead. 00:43:40.190 --> 00:43:44.070 We have a data analyst now, so we have people that are working on, on 00:43:44.130 --> 00:43:45.200 a lot of this stuff all the time. 00:43:45.200 --> 00:43:50.210 So we've got two really core squads, one that's focused on churn and 00:43:50.210 --> 00:43:53.690 retention and one that's focused on expanding and growing the product. 00:43:53.690 --> 00:43:55.310 So we're looking at two. 00:43:56.375 --> 00:44:01.755 They're obviously working very closely together, but we obviously feedback 00:44:01.755 --> 00:44:05.205 wise, I mean, we've got a Facebook group, close community, a group on 00:44:05.205 --> 00:44:09.975 the podcast, 100,000 people, and we are constantly get, you know, from Joe 00:44:09.975 --> 00:44:13.964 getting DMS to the Facebook group, to social media, we can all this feedback. 00:44:13.964 --> 00:44:18.345 We're also collecting feedback on through surveys. 00:44:18.495 --> 00:44:22.545 So every user that Chan's churn is something that I didn't know anything 00:44:22.545 --> 00:44:23.805 about until we don't understand that. 00:44:24.045 --> 00:44:27.735 I wish I didn't because churn is how thing it's a thing. 00:44:27.735 --> 00:44:27.944 Yeah. 00:44:27.975 --> 00:44:30.255 It's definitely a thing that we're getting our head around. 00:44:30.495 --> 00:44:33.915 But we, we, we, we released a churn survey that asked people why they leave. 00:44:34.305 --> 00:44:37.154 And so we're kind of collecting all that information and then we're 00:44:37.154 --> 00:44:39.165 using it to inform our decisions. 00:44:39.165 --> 00:44:42.315 But to your point, Nikki, I mean, I think one of the things that 00:44:42.315 --> 00:44:47.565 we're trying to balance now is all the things the app could do. 00:44:48.375 --> 00:44:52.005 And, and what we think like, ultimately it should do, because we don't 00:44:52.005 --> 00:44:56.205 want to kind of be, try and be, you know, lose the core of the product, 00:44:56.205 --> 00:44:58.305 which is a personalized experience. 00:44:58.635 --> 00:44:58.845 Right. 00:44:59.248 --> 00:45:02.655 So that's quite a tricky challenge that we're doing a lot of work on. 00:45:03.695 --> 00:45:04.955 Nicki: Next, Hey Nikki. 00:45:04.955 --> 00:45:07.985 And OSTI, how are you thinking about accessibility for the hard 00:45:07.985 --> 00:45:12.575 of hearing or vision impaired participant and, or vision impaired 00:45:12.575 --> 00:45:14.255 participants wanting to get a vote with 00:45:14.255 --> 00:45:14.585 Nikki Wicks: the app? 00:45:14.825 --> 00:45:15.875 I love that question. 00:45:16.085 --> 00:45:19.655 And it's something we're working on at the moment right now. 00:45:19.985 --> 00:45:24.965 So we recently so one of our core values, I said that was like fitness for everyone. 00:45:25.025 --> 00:45:27.695 And so that really means fitness for everyone. 00:45:27.695 --> 00:45:32.435 So are you, so YouTube is an example where we're really able to live that 00:45:33.125 --> 00:45:35.105 and that mission, that, that value. 00:45:35.375 --> 00:45:41.195 So we have workouts on there for two and three year olds, and they're 00:45:41.195 --> 00:45:43.955 really, really popular in schools and nurseries are using them. 00:45:43.955 --> 00:45:45.395 We've just done a collaboration with Hayden. 00:45:46.080 --> 00:45:47.400 Which is all aimed at preschool. 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:51.600 So as we work out a workout series, we've paid Douggie all the way through 00:45:51.600 --> 00:45:55.140 to our most popular workouts at the moment, and our senior citizen workouts 00:45:55.420 --> 00:45:58.770 during lockdown, they really took off. 00:45:58.799 --> 00:46:01.799 We create a whole series for people at home that can, you 00:46:01.799 --> 00:46:03.450 know, seniors essentially. 00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:06.540 And so fitness Reverend for us means everyone. 00:46:06.540 --> 00:46:09.660 And then obviously within that, you've got people that are deaf, you've got 00:46:09.660 --> 00:46:13.680 the blind community, you've got tons of other, you know, we're looking at how can 00:46:13.680 --> 00:46:15.960 we create workouts for wheelchair users? 00:46:16.470 --> 00:46:21.180 And the answer is we've, we've just recently posted a whole series on YouTube 00:46:21.180 --> 00:46:25.590 of workouts with a deaf trainer who we met through our search, and they've 00:46:25.590 --> 00:46:27.779 been amazingly really well received. 00:46:27.779 --> 00:46:30.299 And we want to continue building on that in the app. 00:46:30.330 --> 00:46:35.670 We're actually unpacking some work now around captions on the workouts. 00:46:36.249 --> 00:46:41.190 We already built we use some of Apple's accessibility features within the app. 00:46:41.190 --> 00:46:42.900 So in terms of, I won't know, the temp. 00:46:43.665 --> 00:46:48.555 You know, you can make things bigger for, for visually impaired users. 00:46:48.555 --> 00:46:52.785 And actually we're talking to, we're talking to someone in the blind community 00:46:52.785 --> 00:46:57.495 at the moment about how could we create workouts for, for the blind community. 00:46:58.575 --> 00:47:01.665 And one of the, we actually have an Alexa skill which is a 00:47:01.665 --> 00:47:03.495 voice voice workouts with Jo. 00:47:03.825 --> 00:47:08.805 And part of that thinking was again, like really clear instructional workouts. 00:47:09.135 --> 00:47:12.375 And that's been quite a good test to see how, what does, what does Joe 00:47:12.375 --> 00:47:15.045 translate in audio workouts, right? 00:47:15.045 --> 00:47:16.455 You don't need to see what he's doing. 00:47:16.605 --> 00:47:16.845 Yeah. 00:47:17.085 --> 00:47:20.025 So we're working on it and it's really important to us. 00:47:20.025 --> 00:47:24.825 So we're going to just continue to make workouts for everyone, 00:47:25.665 --> 00:47:26.955 perhaps that's the plan. 00:47:27.215 --> 00:47:27.995 Nicki: Thanks for sharing that. 00:47:27.995 --> 00:47:30.125 And it's great to hear the team is currently working on 00:47:30.125 --> 00:47:31.265 unpacking that a bit more. 00:47:32.105 --> 00:47:34.025 What about the platform? 00:47:34.025 --> 00:47:39.515 So are you ensuring that both iOS and Android are feature parity or do 00:47:39.515 --> 00:47:41.375 you see differences in the platforms? 00:47:41.825 --> 00:47:42.395 Nikki Wicks: That's a good question. 00:47:43.125 --> 00:47:47.025 I know the answer to this, since it started this, one's going 00:47:47.025 --> 00:47:48.465 to be a technical one, but no. 00:47:48.465 --> 00:47:52.125 So we're launching Android in December and correct me if I'm wrong. 00:47:52.125 --> 00:47:56.655 But the, in terms of it's going to launch with the parent in terms of 00:47:56.655 --> 00:47:59.685 parity, where we were in March this year. 00:48:00.465 --> 00:48:05.055 So it will be a little bit further on from the launch of iOS, but 00:48:05.055 --> 00:48:07.335 it will be not fully up to speed. 00:48:07.335 --> 00:48:11.325 So part of the, part of the goal and the work, once we launch Android will 00:48:11.325 --> 00:48:15.705 be to bring it up as catch up and I hope we can catch up and then be 00:48:15.705 --> 00:48:18.555 on the same B be at the same level. 00:48:18.675 --> 00:48:19.725 Parity is the word. 00:48:19.725 --> 00:48:20.025 Isn't it. 00:48:20.055 --> 00:48:20.535 That's the word? 00:48:23.536 --> 00:48:27.575 Nicki: So here's one this, the question more about the business strategy. 00:48:27.755 --> 00:48:30.245 How did you think about the commercialization and pricing for 00:48:30.245 --> 00:48:31.985 the app and did us to help with 00:48:31.985 --> 00:48:33.725 Nikki Wicks: this good question? 00:48:34.115 --> 00:48:38.075 Have you my things up questions. 00:48:38.495 --> 00:48:38.735 Really? 00:48:38.735 --> 00:48:39.275 Good question. 00:48:39.275 --> 00:48:40.715 So pricing was a hard one. 00:48:40.715 --> 00:48:40.975 It took. 00:48:41.910 --> 00:48:46.529 Two months to land on the price in we worked really closely with Eva. 00:48:46.560 --> 00:48:47.759 Who's the strategy lead. 00:48:49.603 --> 00:48:53.040 I've done Fs her actual title, but she's the strategy, our strategy person. 00:48:53.430 --> 00:48:57.690 And she's really been working really closely with me on stuff 00:48:57.720 --> 00:49:01.170 like pricing and go to market strategies and stuff like that. 00:49:01.529 --> 00:49:06.360 So pricing, honestly, we, we have built a premium product 00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:07.770 and a really premium experience. 00:49:07.799 --> 00:49:12.240 And a lot of the research we did and, you know, straw polls, we, we 00:49:12.240 --> 00:49:15.029 feel like we could have priced it. 00:49:15.090 --> 00:49:16.980 It could have been more expensive. 00:49:17.279 --> 00:49:19.230 And the challenge was me and Joe were coming and going. 00:49:19.380 --> 00:49:23.069 We want it to be as cheap as it possibly can be because we want it 00:49:23.069 --> 00:49:26.520 to be accessible and we want people to be able to really afford it. 00:49:26.520 --> 00:49:30.690 So it was striking that balance between like making it commercially 00:49:30.990 --> 00:49:35.490 viable but also making it as cheap and as assessable as it could be. 00:49:35.490 --> 00:49:37.319 So we hope we've done that. 00:49:38.625 --> 00:49:42.585 It it's you know, and also we launched with free pricing tier. 00:49:42.595 --> 00:49:47.145 So that again was to kind of give, to have some options and flexibility and 00:49:47.145 --> 00:49:50.205 let one of our key, you know, the, the time we've done promotional offers at 00:49:50.205 --> 00:49:54.015 launch, we launched with an offer and we recently did an offer for the summer. 00:49:54.015 --> 00:49:59.145 And you know, that that really boosts, you know subscriptions, 00:49:59.205 --> 00:50:00.655 Nicki: because change the strategy a bit. 00:50:00.665 --> 00:50:03.515 And you recently, initially it was kind of sign up immediately and 00:50:03.515 --> 00:50:05.885 now there's an initial free trial. 00:50:05.885 --> 00:50:06.125 Isn't 00:50:06.125 --> 00:50:06.275 Nikki Wicks: that? 00:50:06.455 --> 00:50:09.185 So, yeah, we are, we unlocked the free trial recently because I think 00:50:09.185 --> 00:50:13.415 a lot of people, you know, I was expecting I'm expecting a free 00:50:13.415 --> 00:50:14.705 trial and this kind of experience. 00:50:15.095 --> 00:50:17.795 And we had, we had decided initially not to do that. 00:50:18.695 --> 00:50:19.985 Just we hadn't really. 00:50:20.405 --> 00:50:20.735 Yeah. 00:50:20.825 --> 00:50:23.135 But it's something we learned, people really want it and 00:50:23.135 --> 00:50:23.875 it's worked really well. 00:50:23.885 --> 00:50:26.225 Like people have got to look inside the app a little bit. 00:50:26.465 --> 00:50:28.475 We're actually done a lot of work now around activating 00:50:28.475 --> 00:50:29.735 people during that free trial. 00:50:30.075 --> 00:50:30.695 It's actually quite good. 00:50:31.530 --> 00:50:35.370 And it can be quite overwhelming to try in seven days to really 00:50:35.370 --> 00:50:36.810 get the benefits from it. 00:50:37.200 --> 00:50:40.140 And we really want people to actually go, I've got something from this 00:50:40.140 --> 00:50:43.320 seven days, so we're trying to encourage people to just to try one 00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:44.820 workout, so make them feel good. 00:50:44.820 --> 00:50:47.430 And but yeah, that's a good point. 00:50:47.430 --> 00:50:48.360 We lost the free trial. 00:50:49.070 --> 00:50:49.400 Nicki: Great. 00:50:49.430 --> 00:50:50.450 Thank you, Nikki. 00:50:50.450 --> 00:50:52.100 And more personal question for you. 00:50:52.520 --> 00:50:56.540 Do you think yourself quoted naivety helped you in your 00:50:56.540 --> 00:50:58.130 approach to developing the app? 00:50:58.220 --> 00:50:59.240 I love that question. 00:50:59.330 --> 00:50:59.740 Good question. 00:50:59.960 --> 00:51:00.110 Good 00:51:00.110 --> 00:51:00.680 Nikki Wicks: question. 00:51:00.890 --> 00:51:02.020 We didn't make that up either. 00:51:02.080 --> 00:51:02.960 Definitely right in these. 00:51:04.640 --> 00:51:06.220 Yeah, I think that's a really good question. 00:51:06.270 --> 00:51:15.500 And definitely like, I, I had no idea about technology I'd I had definitely 00:51:15.500 --> 00:51:21.260 never not launched or built an app and I really learn a lot and I've, 00:51:21.350 --> 00:51:23.330 I've loved that it hasn't made me. 00:51:24.165 --> 00:51:30.754 They lock a product suddenly want to like work in, I say, work in tech. 00:51:31.084 --> 00:51:34.475 I not, we know, and I keep forget, we are now a tech company, 00:51:34.475 --> 00:51:36.245 so you're not reading Spotify 00:51:36.245 --> 00:51:36.814 Nicki: for a job. 00:51:36.845 --> 00:51:37.205 You don't 00:51:38.725 --> 00:51:39.165 Nikki Wicks: know. 00:51:39.544 --> 00:51:40.595 But yeah, it did help. 00:51:40.595 --> 00:51:41.104 It helps a lot. 00:51:41.104 --> 00:51:44.495 And like I said, it, but it did make the pressure or not the pressure, but 00:51:44.674 --> 00:51:50.134 that onus of like, trust it really, it made it even more because we had to 00:51:50.134 --> 00:51:52.924 really go like, okay, what should we do? 00:51:52.955 --> 00:51:53.975 What do you recommend? 00:51:54.334 --> 00:51:57.455 And obviously that we had to, we took all the decisions on 00:51:57.455 --> 00:51:58.475 and took them very seriously. 00:51:58.475 --> 00:52:02.104 But one thing I loved, I think it was always, I always 00:52:02.104 --> 00:52:03.185 felt like all of the snow. 00:52:03.214 --> 00:52:06.125 I think you guys were really great at painting all the scenarios. 00:52:06.365 --> 00:52:10.070 Things like there were always options and it was like, this is what it would mean. 00:52:10.895 --> 00:52:14.995 And I have to say like from a technical standpoint, having no. 00:52:16.050 --> 00:52:19.689 Technical expertise, Aaron, who was our tech principal. 00:52:20.730 --> 00:52:23.560 And it still is our, it is still our tech principal. 00:52:24.330 --> 00:52:28.500 But you know, through that first year, his ability to explain 00:52:29.190 --> 00:52:32.190 complex stuff is like amazing. 00:52:32.220 --> 00:52:32.430 Yeah. 00:52:32.640 --> 00:52:37.050 He explained the most like technical and not even cause I had to ask, he just knew, 00:52:37.110 --> 00:52:40.620 I don't know if that's how he is all the time or if he just knew that I was, he was 00:52:40.620 --> 00:52:44.430 talking to like a, so can someone didn't know what the hell was going on, but 00:52:44.430 --> 00:52:49.140 he, he made it super easy and explained it enough that I could understand the 00:52:49.140 --> 00:52:56.550 technical technicality, but not overwhelm me with strange words and stuff. 00:52:58.875 --> 00:52:59.775 Nicki: Do you use the word name? 00:52:59.815 --> 00:53:01.005 He was a real asset for you. 00:53:01.005 --> 00:53:04.275 You came completely fresh, not bogged down in the kind of what's 00:53:04.275 --> 00:53:06.985 possible, but more what would the customers need and what did you enjoy? 00:53:07.715 --> 00:53:09.665 Yeah, a hundred percent really important. 00:53:09.725 --> 00:53:10.025 Okay. 00:53:10.025 --> 00:53:11.465 Moving more onto marketing. 00:53:11.465 --> 00:53:16.265 Now, aside from an apple promotion and communicating to your existing 00:53:16.265 --> 00:53:20.645 customer base, et cetera, did you carry out any other marketing for the app? 00:53:20.735 --> 00:53:22.565 If so, what worked and what didn't. 00:53:24.135 --> 00:53:24.465 Nikki Wicks: Yeah. 00:53:24.465 --> 00:53:28.935 So this is an interesting question, cause we've we basically, for the last 00:53:28.935 --> 00:53:33.615 sort of five or six years, we've, you know, built the brand very organically on 00:53:33.615 --> 00:53:35.985 social media and what I, what I would say. 00:53:36.135 --> 00:53:41.465 So my background in journalism was I think when I came to work with Joe, about 00:53:41.465 --> 00:53:45.365 six years ago, I was really obsessed with like content and I still am. 00:53:45.365 --> 00:53:49.865 I kind of, we really doubled down on content and we kind of, you know, 00:53:50.045 --> 00:53:52.055 content marketing was our thing. 00:53:52.115 --> 00:53:56.255 It wasn't like an add on to like digital advertising or, or 00:53:56.255 --> 00:53:57.305 more traditional advertising. 00:53:57.515 --> 00:54:00.665 We basically for the last five or six years have done content, 00:54:00.845 --> 00:54:04.505 I think I think really well in terms of growing an audience. 00:54:04.505 --> 00:54:07.955 So, you know, as I said, our YouTube channel is the biggest 00:54:07.955 --> 00:54:09.545 fitness YouTube channel in Europe. 00:54:09.575 --> 00:54:12.904 Now I think we're certainly in the UK that we have around 14 00:54:12.904 --> 00:54:14.825 million views a month on YouTube. 00:54:15.540 --> 00:54:18.150 Because we've invested that energy in that content. 00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:18.600 Yeah. 00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:19.800 Same with Instagram. 00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:21.480 Like we give away free recipes. 00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:26.340 And so we came into it very kind of from an organic, like we've 00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:27.410 done everything organically. 00:54:27.420 --> 00:54:32.550 All of our audience customers on the PDF were always, it was very organic, never, 00:54:32.670 --> 00:54:35.130 never really invested much in digital. 00:54:36.720 --> 00:54:41.340 And then I think I became a little bit like, well, it's a digital product, 00:54:41.370 --> 00:54:45.030 so maybe we should start doing digital acquisition and digital digital marketing. 00:54:45.420 --> 00:54:49.650 And so since launch, we've started to test the waters with that. 00:54:50.648 --> 00:54:53.850 And we've actually just come to the end of, I guess what you'd call a six 00:54:53.850 --> 00:54:59.430 month experiment to see, you know, what does digital acquisition mean for us 00:54:59.430 --> 00:55:06.390 as a business and ensure you know, we spent money on Facebook, on Google and 00:55:06.390 --> 00:55:10.500 on apple search ads and it ended up. 00:55:11.205 --> 00:55:15.615 Accounting for just under 10% of our acquisition was through 00:55:15.615 --> 00:55:17.775 paid our acquisition costs. 00:55:18.765 --> 00:55:21.885 We'd got to the point where they were about breakeven on the, on 00:55:21.885 --> 00:55:23.265 the lifetime value of a customer. 00:55:23.505 --> 00:55:27.156 Our lifetime value is kind of what the cost per acquisition was coming in at. 00:55:28.935 --> 00:55:32.985 And we've kind of now literally just last week kind of taken the foot 00:55:32.985 --> 00:55:34.185 off the gas a little bit and gone. 00:55:34.185 --> 00:55:39.375 Let's just look at this, you know, over 90% of our customers still 00:55:39.375 --> 00:55:40.785 come through organic channels. 00:55:41.295 --> 00:55:42.825 So really understanding where to. 00:55:44.670 --> 00:55:47.370 Play a role in, in, in growth, future growth. 00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:50.640 And I think it's something we'll definitely do. 00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:55.470 And I just don't know how much we'll, we'll invest in that because we have 00:55:55.470 --> 00:56:00.540 such strong organic, you know reach, I mean, our email, we have a huge email 00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:01.980 database, which is really powerful. 00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:05.400 We have around 900,000 email subscribers. 00:56:05.550 --> 00:56:07.770 And actually, I forgot, we actually did some out. 00:56:07.830 --> 00:56:12.660 One thing, one thing I've never thought we would do is any outlier above the line 00:56:12.660 --> 00:56:18.120 advertising, but we, we got some we did some outdoor stuff for launch and again, 00:56:18.120 --> 00:56:21.060 it came down to that thing of like, right, if me and Joe kind of going, if we're 00:56:21.060 --> 00:56:22.710 going to do this, let's do it properly. 00:56:22.860 --> 00:56:25.920 So if we're going to do it, let's work with an amazing agency. 00:56:26.550 --> 00:56:29.880 If we're going to do it, if we're going to make an announcement, let's go big. 00:56:30.090 --> 00:56:36.990 So we did like some big outdoor stuff in terms of how impactful that was. 00:56:37.050 --> 00:56:37.920 No idea. 00:56:38.250 --> 00:56:38.460 So 00:56:38.520 --> 00:56:38.700 Nicki: yeah. 00:56:39.645 --> 00:56:41.145 Do you think you'd consider doing it again, though? 00:56:41.145 --> 00:56:44.655 If you were doing a big push say in a totally brand new market or 00:56:44.685 --> 00:56:46.215 on another platform, but yeah, 00:56:46.245 --> 00:56:48.845 Nikki Wicks: possibly, I mean, I think we weren't set up to really measure it. 00:56:48.845 --> 00:56:52.265 Like we don't have like brand uplift, you know, case studies. 00:56:52.265 --> 00:56:55.625 We don't know, we can't really attribute. 00:56:57.824 --> 00:57:01.775 I think it was great for like a bit, a bit of a big bang launch 00:57:01.955 --> 00:57:04.535 and it was nice seeing people on social media going, oh, wow. 00:57:04.535 --> 00:57:07.775 You know, I've just seen your, your big ads on, had an amazing 00:57:07.775 --> 00:57:11.915 one in in Kensington or not this huge it's called the combination. 00:57:11.915 --> 00:57:14.855 It's like one of the biggest billboards in London. 00:57:15.245 --> 00:57:16.835 So it was certainly fun seeing it. 00:57:17.705 --> 00:57:18.875 I don't know if we do it again. 00:57:20.135 --> 00:57:20.645 I'll be honest. 00:57:20.735 --> 00:57:21.875 We also got really good, right. 00:57:21.875 --> 00:57:24.665 You know, really good rates at the time because it was, you know, during lockdown 00:57:24.665 --> 00:57:30.455 and the kind of the, the cost, it was, it was, we could afford to take that risk. 00:57:30.905 --> 00:57:36.095 But I don't know, w what I don't want to do is lose, lose. 00:57:37.845 --> 00:57:39.915 Focus on engagement and content. 00:57:39.944 --> 00:57:43.875 So I think the minute we dial up and think about digital and advertising and 00:57:43.875 --> 00:57:49.865 do all of our hardware, it, it means we stop kind of really pushing to, to 00:57:49.964 --> 00:57:52.854 put stuff out into what it's useful because that's, what's worked for us. 00:57:52.854 --> 00:57:55.904 So really kind of putting out content is valuable to people. 00:57:56.325 --> 00:57:57.645 So I'm a big content. 00:57:57.995 --> 00:58:01.265 Nicki: So moving on to more of the kind of product design process, 00:58:01.745 --> 00:58:04.895 how much of your product has been designed based on the brand journey 00:58:04.895 --> 00:58:08.375 so far and your own instincts versus always running user tests. 00:58:09.180 --> 00:58:11.700 That's a great question from a kind of prices perspective. 00:58:11.730 --> 00:58:12.450 These are all for me, these 00:58:12.450 --> 00:58:13.050 Nikki Wicks: questions. 00:58:13.500 --> 00:58:16.380 Nicki: Well, Colin, maybe you can talk a little bit about 00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:18.060 the kind of product process. 00:58:18.870 --> 00:58:20.580 Nikki Wicks: Can I just say one thing about, yeah, go on. 00:58:20.730 --> 00:58:21.150 Sorry. 00:58:21.720 --> 00:58:24.270 I said, I don't want any more questions and I'll cut it all. 00:58:24.270 --> 00:58:27.950 I would say that because I think this is, I said, when we S when we started to 00:58:27.950 --> 00:58:33.050 think about building an app, I realized we had no brand guidelines or any branding. 00:58:33.050 --> 00:58:34.400 We'd never done any branding. 00:58:34.580 --> 00:58:38.240 We didn't really know what color we were or life we had any funds. 00:58:38.600 --> 00:58:44.900 It was like a friend it's done some stuff, like, you know, designed a wasn't a logo. 00:58:44.900 --> 00:58:46.910 It was the body coach in a certain type face. 00:58:46.910 --> 00:58:49.800 And I was like, God, like, what are they going to have? 00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:51.350 What are they going to build this off? 00:58:51.410 --> 00:58:54.650 Like, are they just going to go on the website and go, oh, this is their color. 00:58:54.830 --> 00:58:55.430 So we actually did. 00:58:56.234 --> 00:59:01.125 Branding piece with Koto and they basically did our brand 00:59:01.154 --> 00:59:03.285 identity, which we love. 00:59:03.375 --> 00:59:04.395 And then you can carry on now. 00:59:04.924 --> 00:59:08.105 Colin: Well, I guess the thing to say is that I think it was a combination of both. 00:59:08.134 --> 00:59:10.535 I think there was, there was really strong feelings because 00:59:10.535 --> 00:59:11.884 you knew your audience so well. 00:59:11.944 --> 00:59:15.395 And Joe felt very intimately connected to what, what the people needed. 00:59:15.694 --> 00:59:18.245 A lot of the drive came from from you guys. 00:59:18.605 --> 00:59:21.725 But then I think there was also an acceptance that, you know, our process 00:59:21.725 --> 00:59:25.265 is deeply connected to getting user feedback and using that as a way to 00:59:25.634 --> 00:59:29.765 at least understand the desirability aspect of, of, of, of a product. 00:59:30.185 --> 00:59:34.024 And I think it was a constant balancing of, you know, what, what, cause, I 00:59:34.024 --> 00:59:35.225 mean, even the shopping list, right? 00:59:35.225 --> 00:59:38.194 The jobs, we could all kind of joke about the shopping list because it was not the 00:59:38.194 --> 00:59:40.245 initial, it was not an initial scope. 00:59:41.285 --> 00:59:44.464 And Joe believed deeply that this was a career. 00:59:45.225 --> 00:59:49.634 No component to the app and we weren't getting that same feedback in our user 00:59:49.634 --> 00:59:52.335 research, but of course he was getting it from DMS and getting it from them. 00:59:52.634 --> 00:59:55.905 So I think this, this balancing of like, what does a user say they want? 00:59:56.055 --> 01:00:00.435 And then intuition that can also drive correct decisions was something 01:00:00.435 --> 01:00:02.505 that I think is not unique to this, but it was definitely evident here. 01:00:02.505 --> 01:00:06.285 I think it's, you're constantly having to, to, to balance these things. 01:00:06.285 --> 01:00:09.465 I think that tension can sometimes be quite good because if you 01:00:09.465 --> 01:00:11.535 were like too much on the user, you may not build something 01:00:11.595 --> 01:00:13.215 innovative, something too, you know? 01:00:13.225 --> 01:00:13.634 Interesting. 01:00:13.634 --> 01:00:15.615 But then if you don't listen to them enough, you build something that 01:00:15.615 --> 01:00:16.725 they don't actually want to use. 01:00:17.235 --> 01:00:21.165 So I'd say in this case, I think it showed up in a lot of intuition 01:00:21.165 --> 01:00:25.065 and drive from Joe and Nikki, and then also bouncing off with what we 01:00:25.065 --> 01:00:26.265 got from the user research as well. 01:00:26.915 --> 01:00:29.825 Nicki: We're going to wrap up shortly, but there's one more question. 01:00:29.855 --> 01:00:31.625 And Nikki just kind of. 01:00:32.415 --> 01:00:33.285 Heads up for you. 01:00:33.285 --> 01:00:37.965 So on the point of hard of hearing a massive recommendation that you make 01:00:37.965 --> 01:00:41.055 contact with the team at silently, if you're not in contact with them already. 01:00:41.865 --> 01:00:46.125 And then the question, would you look to create industry partnerships 01:00:46.125 --> 01:00:50.715 from a B2B to C perspective, enabling employees to access the app from 01:00:50.715 --> 01:00:53.475 a mental health states, if such a scene with apps like Headspace or 01:00:53.475 --> 01:00:55.425 calm, could that be a good next step? 01:00:55.775 --> 01:00:57.634 Nikki Wicks: That it would be an amazing next step? 01:00:57.905 --> 01:01:02.045 And it's something where we're really exploring now. 01:01:02.075 --> 01:01:05.134 So we're, we're actually, so say a guy who I mentioned, who's our 01:01:05.585 --> 01:01:07.025 new head of product last week. 01:01:07.475 --> 01:01:10.595 One of the first things we've been big, things we've been talking about 01:01:10.595 --> 01:01:13.805 is just looking at what we would need to do to be able to do that. 01:01:15.129 --> 01:01:18.755 I think, you know, again, fitness for everyone, like people in the 01:01:18.755 --> 01:01:22.865 workspace employees also, you know, there's, there's, there's loads. 01:01:24.100 --> 01:01:28.830 Smaller demographics within, you know, shift workers and NHS workers and people, 01:01:28.830 --> 01:01:33.840 you know, we offer a kind of philosophy around fitness and training that it 01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:36.120 can be done in a short period of time. 01:01:36.450 --> 01:01:40.650 And it can be, you know, it is assessable and we want as many people 01:01:40.650 --> 01:01:41.880 to have access to it as we can. 01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:48.000 So yes, we are looking at what we need to do to be able to offer employees 01:01:48.060 --> 01:01:53.100 and B2B you know, whether it's product things we need to do, or whether it's 01:01:53.100 --> 01:01:55.290 more on the kind of subscription side. 01:01:56.733 --> 01:01:58.920 The answer is, yes, we are looking to do that. 01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:02.580 And I, if it's a big thing for me, I would love to be able to do it tomorrow, but we 01:02:02.580 --> 01:02:04.140 just, there's a bit of work to be done. 01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:04.790 Great. 01:02:04.790 --> 01:02:04.970 So 01:02:04.970 --> 01:02:05.900 Nicki: watch the space. 01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.318 Well, thank you both very much for your time. 01:02:08.610 --> 01:02:09.530 Nikki, thanks so much. 01:02:09.530 --> 01:02:10.571 We know how busy you are. 01:02:11.213 --> 01:02:15.080 Particularly running such a small team and thank you all 01:02:15.080 --> 01:02:16.580 in the audience for joining us. 01:02:17.060 --> 01:02:19.250 Hope it's been interesting and we look forward to any more 01:02:19.250 --> 01:02:20.420 questions that you might throw up. 01:02:21.495 --> 01:02:23.385 Thanks and have a lovely afternoon.